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Date Posted: Tuesday, January 15, 09:34:16pm
Author: Lij
Author Host/IP: adsl-99-50-230-131.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net / 99.50.230.131
Subject: La famille Englebert de Glimes - to Regine Brindle
In reply to: Lij 's message, "Chani.... may I ask a favor?" on Thursday, December 13, 12:05:17pm

La famille Englebert de Glimes


Hi Regine, thank you.

I believe Camille Auguste Oswald ENGLEBERT from Glimes, Belgium, "became"
Camille Eugene Oswald Englebert de BUISSERET in America. That last name is the
full name the family in Indiana knew him by. Strangely enough the family always
refered to him as "Camille." However, he primarily signed all legal and family
(like births, weddings, etc) documents using the name Eugene de BUISSERET.

Oddly enough if you remove that signature name from the full name the family
knew then you are left with Camille Oswald ENGLEBERT - which is line with the
Englebert from Glimes. It is almost if his true name was encoded in that way for
us to find, and some family in Indiana have always held the true surname to be
ENGLEBERT. Also, some of think he chose the name Eugene because his signet ring
was engraved with a "CE."

Given that they are one and the same, I assume he was attempting to hide after
his brother-in-law GODEFROID & sister, Elvire Pauline ENGLEBERT, were sued (in a
court in Nivelles) by a curateur of a bankrupt company over the distribution of
their inheritance from their mother (Jeanne DeJARDIN).

However, I am still not sure that the Belgian ENGLEBERT is my American Englebert
de BUISSERET. It would be interesting if I had a signature of the Belgian
ENGLEBERT so that I could compare with their handwriting, especially the "E's"
in Englebert and Eugene - the "E" is quite disctinctive. And as both names end
in a "t" the ending could be distinctive.

If they are one and the same person, the wife of Camille ENGLEBERT was a
maid-servant in the Englebert household in Glimes. She was Marie Catherine
Josephe BOULANGER b. 1829 in Bonlez to Pierre Jacques BOULANGER & Marie
Josephine FLEMAL. BTW - the rest of the BOULANGER family emigrated to near
Thiry Daems in Red River Twp, Kewaunee Co., Wisconsin.

But that is the big question, where is the marriage. A notation by the Bonlez
baptismal record of Marie Catherine Josephe BOULANGER claims she married
"Camille Buisseret" in 1853 - and nothing else. I find it interesting that the
name recorded there is not Eugene. But I am skeptical of the date. The date
would seem to indicate that they were married in Belgium as there is the ships
record that appears to be their entrance into Harwich, England, in May 1855.
The question would be, who reported that marriage to her parish in Bonlez? If
they were married in 1853 in Belgium then he likely married her under his
surname of ENGLEBERT. Did they then self-report the marriage to the parish of
Bonlez that she married "Camille BUISSERET" at some later date? Possibly at the
time they left Belgium? Or is the notation of the date as much a lie as his
surname?

If they were married in Belgium in 1853 I would assume it had to be under the
ENGLEBERT name, but the marriage may have been in a larger city, specifically,
Nivelles, Bruxelles, or Liege. However, if the date is also a lie then I
suspect the marriage occurred near the date they left Belgium, May 1855, and
then perhaps even in Antwerp. Or they may have even married in England. I
suspect that they were not married until 1855 as their first child, named
Pauline, was born "a few days" before the child's death on 28 Nov 1855 in
Vincennes, Indiana.

The first record in the US was 3 months earlier on 28 July 1855 when a deed was
created to the land that became their homestead. I would assume they arrived at
least a month earlier. So between arriving in Harwich, England, on 7 May and
getting to Vincennes, let's say 7 July, they were travelling for 2 months. They
must have had already decided on going to Vincennes, and we have a family story
which may explain that. The family myth claims that the Bishop of Vincennes
(Indiana) convinced him to come to Vincennes. Whether he met the Maurice de St
Palais, Bishop of Vincennes, or simply read of him is unknown. But our ancestor
in Vincennes did lend the Bishop $3520.00 under an agreement dated 28 Jan 1856.

This is how the visit to Belgium in the spring and summer of 1852 of Maurice de
St. Palais, Bishop of Vincennes, was described in the History of the Sisters of
Providence of Saint Mary-of-the-Woods (1949): "His visit to zealous and
hospitable Belgium was however much more satisfactory, and it was there in the
most generous country of Europe eventually that he secured the musician for whom
the Community had been praying. In the great Catholic families of the Belgian
aristocracy, so high-minded and so profoundly religious, the Bishop was welcomed
everywhere, and they disputed with one another to the honor of receiving him and
hearing his account of his needy diocese. Several of these noblemen gave
generously to this worthy cause. The Bishop was both gratified and encouraged
especially as he expected aid also from Catholic Brittany, which he was
reserving to the last place upon his itinerary." The Bishop arrived in New
York on 10 Oct 1852. The family myth claims the DeBuisserets were on that same
ship; but I have located the ship's list and have proven they were not.

I think more importantly than a marriage record may be any record dated from
perhaps 1847 through April 1855 from Glimes which may record a Marie Catherine
Josephe BOULANGER from Bonlez. These could include a baptism or a marriage for
which she stood. Even more important may be an 1850 (1851?) census record for
the Englebert household in Glimes which would list Marie Catherine Josephe
BOULANGER from Bonlez. She is listed as gone on the census record at Bonlez for
that year.

Seems I answered more than "where was his wife from?" LOL!

Best... Lynn

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Replies:

[> [> Email to Mike Eskew -- Lij, Tuesday, January 15, 10:02:10pm (adsl-99-50-230-131.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net/99.50.230.131)

Mike...


If I haven't mentioned it I am researching this idea through a professional genealogist.


The family story my mother told me goes something like this.


1 - Marie Catherine Josephe Boulanger left her home and became a maid in the DeBuisseret household in Paris.


2 - Catherine and Camille Eugene DeBuisseret fell in love but his father forbade the marriage.


3 - Camille Eugene DeBuisseret had studied law at La Sorbonne.


4 - Camille's father died and...


5 - After his father's death, Camille oversaw the disposition of the inheritance and made sure his two sisters were thus taken care of.


6 - Camille and Catherine were married.


7 - Something unseemly happened - speculation runs from simply the marriage that his relatives would not acknowledge or that he fought a duel.


8 - Maurice de St Palais, Bishop of Vincennes, Indiana, was in Paris and convinced Camille Eugene DeBuisseret to relocate to Vincennes - and Camille Eugene DeBuisseret and Catherine Boulanger were on the same steamship out of Le Havre the Bishop returned to America.

-------------------------------------------------------


So let's examine what happens if you consider Camille August Oswald ENGLEBERT to be our Camille Eugene Oswald Englebert de BUISSERET:


1 - Catherine Boulanger left her home and became a maid in the DeBuisseret household in Glimes.


2 - Catherine and Camille Eugene DeBuisseret fell in love but his father forbade the marriage. Likely true!


3 - Camille Eugene DeBuisseret had studied law at Leuven (Louvain) or Liege. Back in the 1980s I was living in OKC and an acquaintance from the Mormon Family History Library there took my information to people at La Sorbonne and they researched old records to see if he (under the name Buisseret or Englebert) did attend La Sorbonne about 1835 to 1852. None was found.


4 - Camille's father died.... True, for Camille ENGLEBERT: the father of Camille ENGLEBERT, Francois Joseph Auguste ENGLEBERT, died on 2 May 1853.



5 - After his father's death, Camille oversaw the disposition of the inheritance and made sure his two sisters were thus taken care of. True for Camille ENGLEBERT. That Camille created a notorial act dated 24 Apr 1853 which distributed his mother's inheritance to he and his sisters (Pauline & Hortense, who was married to a Godefroid). Their mother had died earlier in 1827. This date about a week earlier than his father's death would seem to be in anticipation of that death, perhaps his father was gravely ill. So this is mostly true for Camille ENGLEBERT.


6 - Camille and Catherine were married. There is a notation in the Parish register of Bonlez by the baptismal record of Marie Catherine Josephe BOULANGER stating that she married "Camille Buisseret" in 1853. That is all it says. When the notation was made is unknown. It could have be that the marriage between Catherine BOULANGER and Camille ENGLEBERT was performed in Belgium in 1853 and at some later date Camille reported the marriage to Bonlez? This is unknown but, of course, the marriage record is that record which is most sought after at this time. But if I have to fit this fact into the narrative then I would consider that their marriage occurred in Belgium in 1853 and then self-reported later to be most probable.


7 - Something unseemly happened - speculation runs from simply the marriage that his relatives would not acknowledge or that he fought a duel. For Camille ENGLEBERT this appears to be the court case that the notorial act of 24 Apr 1853 which he arranged. That act resulted in a trial of fraud against Godefroid (husband of Hortense Englebert) and Pauline Englebert (and possibly Camille Englebert?). The result of which by a writ dated 16 Nov 1855 from the court in Nivelles decreed that the notorial act of 24 Apr 1853 null & void. A further court case in a higher court in Brussels mentions that Pauline Englebert is in negotiations to settle that case but Godefroid seeks relief from the Brussels court to have evidence presented which the Nivelles court did not allow. Godefroid won that case on 12 Aug 1856, and it is supposed he got another hearing in the court at Nivelles.


These ongoing court cases may be one reason why Camille Auguste Oswald ENGLEBERT would have changed his name to our known Camille Eugene Oswald Englebert de BUISSERET in Knox County, Indiana. In land and court records in Indiana ours uses mostly uses the name Eugene de Buisseret which is completely different than the Belgian's name. Further he always identifies in these early records as being from France (same goes for the census except the 1870 census which names his country or origin as Belgium). Despite all this the name used for him which was passed down in the families was Camille. Further, his signet ring (John Ostendorf) has the initials C E on it. If this means Camille Englebert, then did he change his second name to Eugene in order to explain the "E" on the ring?


Finally, the birthdates of each are 'similar.' Camille Englebert was born 15 Jul 1822. The tombstone of Camille Eugene de Buisseret records his birth as 18 Jul 1823. These dates are sufficiently close, especially since it was likely his son or daughters who recalled his birthdate.


8 - Maurice de St Palais, Bishop of Vincennes, Indiana, was in Paris and convinced Camille Eugene DeBuisseret to relocate to Vincennes - and Camille Eugene DeBuisseret and Catherine Boulanger were on the same steamship out of Le Havre the Bishop returned to America. - This may be partly true. What is not true is that our two ancestors were on the same ship as the Bishop when he returned to America. The Bishop arrived in New York on 10 Oct 1852. I have found that ship's list and no one who could be identified with Camille and Catherine are on that ship. Which makes sense, since there is a record for an arrival of a Camille Englebert and Catherine Boulange (sic) in Harwich, England, on 7 May 1855. Further the earliest known record for Camille Eugene Oswald Englebert de BUISSERET is a deed dated 28 July 1855. Thus it appears that if Camille Englebert and Eugene de Buisseret are one and the same that he arrived in Vincennes about two months after leaving Belgium (assuming about a month to find and buy the land purchased on 28 July 1855).


What is possibly true, however, is that he met Maurice de St Palais, Bishop of Vincennes, at one point during the Bishop's tour of Belgium in 1852. This is how the visit to Belgium in the spring and summer of 1852 of Maurice de St. Palais, Bishop of Vincennes, was described in the History of the Sisters of Providence of Saint Mary-of-the-Woods (1949): "His visit to zealous and hospitable Belgium was however much more satisfactory, and it was there in the most generous country of Europe eventually that he secured the musician for whom the Community had been praying. In the great Catholic families of the Belgian aristocracy, so high-minded and so profoundly religious, the Bishop was welcomed everywhere, and they disputed with one another to the honor of receiving him and hearing his account of his needy diocese. Several of these noblemen gave generously to this worthy cause. The Bishop was both gratified and encouraged especially as he expected aid also from Catholic Brittany, which he was reserving to the last place upon his itinerary."


The fact which backs up this idea concerns a loan made by Camille Eugene de Buisseret to Maurice de St Palais, Bishop of Vincennes, on 28 Jan 1856, in the amount of $3520. This was the second financial record for the family made just 6 months after their first. The death of their first child Pauline occurred a few days after birth on 28 Nov 1855. However, none of this directly impacts on the idea that Camille Auguest Oswald ENGLEBERT became Camille Eugene Oswald Englebert de BUISSERET.


---------------------------------------------

But to me, all of that seems to add up that they are the same person. But we need something more exact to prove that they are the same person. Chief among those that ProGenealogists is searching for is some mention of Marie Catherine Josephe BOULANGER of Bonlez in the ENGLEBERT household in Glimes or simply in Glimes at all.


Best... Lynn


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