That's a very good point especially if the O is written with the MC's "voice." Thanks Alex, this has really helped me. >>>> -- Ladies of Lallybroch Literary Forum

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Date Posted: 09:38:48 03/22/10 Mon
Author:

susiej
Subject: That's a very good point especially if the O is written with the MC's "voice." Thanks Alex, this has really helped me. >>>>
In reply to: Alex 's message, "Re: Teacher! Teacher, look. I did my homework! >>>>" on 06:48:24 03/22/10 Mon

At 12, I read LOTR and fell hard for epic books and big casts. Tolkien slides in and out of POV through out and within a chapter- Sam's,Gollum's, Frodo's- all done for a reason and done really well- even so, his style is often too distant for modern readers. That's exactly what agents tell me- "I don't feel I know Rose well enough." "Too many older heads I don't care about"(that one really made me laugh and feel old!)

It's a problem for me because as a reader I tire of first person. I think it's why I love Voyager when so many DG fans don't- I'm so glad to get into Jamie's head for a change! And Lord John- I especially love his conflicted musings on Claire.

Anyway, it's hard for me to distance myself since I know exactly whose talking at every line-you've really helped- thanks!

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: That's a very good point especially if the O is written with the MC's "voice." Thanks Alex, this has really helped me. >>>> -- Alex, 12:43:37 03/22/10 Mon

>At 12, I read LOTR and fell hard for epic books and
>big casts. Tolkien slides in and out of POV through
>out and within a chapter- Sam's,Gollum's, Frodo's- all
>done for a reason and done really well- even so, his
>style is often too distant for modern readers. That's
>exactly what agents tell me- "I don't feel I know Rose
>well enough." "Too many older heads I don't care
>about"(that one really made me laugh and feel old!)

The nerve! They don't love all your characters? (I do. And they should too. :op)

I too fell hard for Tolkien in grade school. I can remember being torn, not wanting to take my nose out of the book I was re-reading for the umpteenth time, when my Dad prompted me to get in the car to take me to the school dance. (I should've stuck with my gut. I would've had a much better time.) Years later my husband bought me the set in a schmancy leather bound volume for my B-day. I was delighted...till I started reading it again. I remember being immersed. Gripped with tension. Fear. Oblivious to everything around me. Instead of experiencing the same thing, to my dismay I discovered I'd succumbed to what Steven King mentioned - the eventual ossification of the imaginary faculties, that is called adulthood. Waaah! I was slogging through my beloved story and *checking over shoulder, then whispering behind hand* being bored. :o| Felt like a traitor. But even though Tolkien shifts POV, it's not within the scene, is it? Back and forth? I remember it shifting and then staying there for a bit. I also remember being very frustrated when things were pretty dire in Helms Deep and the next page we're in the woods at the slow as molasses Ent council. *exasperated sigh* Now I'm like, whoa, Tolkien has a cliff hanger at the end of every chapter. Seriously predictable. How did I not realized this before? But getting back to the POV thing. I don't think he shifts from sentence to sentence between the characters POVs, does he?

>It's a problem for me because as a reader I tire of
>first person. I think it's why I love Voyager when so
>many DG fans don't- I'm so glad to get into Jamie's
>head for a change! And Lord John- I especially love
>his conflicted musings on Claire.

Agreed! But even though DG shifts, it's still just that character's POV through the scene, right?

>Anyway, it's hard for me to distance myself since I
>know exactly whose talking at every line-you've really
>helped- thanks!

A friend of mine told me once to prioritize what's important for the reader to know in the scene. Scale of 1-10. Anything below a 5 gets cut. I hated doing that. I wanted it all to be important to the reader. But gritting my teeth, I did what they asked and discovered the scene was a lot easier to read afterwards and there were less POV shifts. She kept after me to prioritize the top five now. Pretty soon I didn't hate the exercise so much when I realized by cutting the less than necessary the scene became more vivid. No confusion. No multiple ways to interpret actions and dialog. At the time it felt like I was killing my baby, but it was a huge help in getting me to see the scene on paper more clearly.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Tolkien may not shift back and forth between sentences but he does shift inside scenes>>> --

susiej, 14:55:56 03/22/10 Mon

I just reread the Hobbit and he shifts, for example, into the Master of Lakewood's thoughts for a paragraph, and then back out to say, Brands or O. Though he's often in Bilbo's he doesn't stay there or stay very close.

And Juliet Marillier shifts from Bridei into Tuala during a scene but then stays with Tuala for a long time. I see this now when I wouldn't have before because I've become so sensitive about it.

The only time I rember it throwing me to where I went, huh? was in Ranger's Apprentice when the whole book is in Will's POV and then he slips once into Halt's toward the end. And again, if I'd read that years ago, don't know that I wouldn't have noticed it. But now, I'm ruined. (grin)

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Tolkien may not shift back and forth between sentences but he does shift inside scenes>>> -- Alex, 16:46:15 03/22/10 Mon

So what's the secret to making shifting POV clear? If the O is really strong, then the reader unconsciously grasps they'll get little flits into the character's heads? O has them by the hand and tells them the lead in to who'd be talking? When I re-read Tolkien as an adult I found myself frustrated that he told the story, rather than showed it, something I never noticed as a child. Early on in FOTR there's a line like...if they only looked back they'd see the wraiths after them. Annoyed me to no end. *ggg* But I guess as a kid you're used to being told stuff and your imagination expands from there. As an adult I found the telling took away all the suspense.

I know the In Death books by J.D. Robb shifts POV, but there I think it's more each character's voice and observations is distinct to keep the reader on track. Roark and Eve don't talk or think the same way...does the O set up the shifts too?

I haven't read the other stories you mentioned. Sorry.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Alex>> -- susiej, 18:05:20 03/22/10 Mon

I think Tolkien gets away with it because there really isn't one MC. It sort of centers on Frodo particularly in the beginning, but by the end even in the Frodo chapters, its more in Sam's POV. And the others all gain a voice as it goes on but still, yes, always, always the O is strong.

Do you read Dorohy Dunnett? She's hardly ever in the MC's head and many find her too hard to read, but I love it- the MCS are such enigmas and it makes for great discussion-and by the end you're just rooting for them and hating all the other characters who constantly misundertand/mistrust them, but many people can't get that far and dislike her books.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Alex>> -- Alex, 08:00:40 03/23/10 Tue

I haven't read any Dunnett, but I'm putting her on my TBR list! *s* Lately I've been on a faerie kick. Patricia A. McKillip. Melisa Marr. And I stumbled upon *be still my heart* Holly Black. I found myself so immersed and emotionally engaged in her stories that I never noticed style or the mechanics of how she writes. High praise from me! *s* I'm eagerly awaiting her latest, due out in May. She has multiple POV's throughout, but not within the same scene...but she just released an anthology of short stories The Poison Eaters and one vignette revisits the characters in her Tithe, Valiant, Ironside series. The POV does shift back and forth. Repeatedly. It reads clean though and it's very clear who's talking as it switches between the King of the Unseelie Court and a twenty something guy who are both suffering insecurities about their love lives. Suffering the same insecurities. *s* Which is fascinating since the guy it gay and the king is a faerie and both their thought processes and how they handle themselves are distinctly different, but driven by the same feelings. How does she manage to do that? No idea. *ggg* So I like reading a shifting POV, that gives me peeks into the different character's heads, but I don't enjoy a wavering POV at all. There the story feels muzzy and confusing and I spend a lot of time trying to figure out what's going on, till I'm eventually annoyed to the point I won't read it anymore.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> This is interesting, and answers a lot of questions >>> -- Page, 21:06:28 03/22/10 Mon

I've never been a fan of Tolkien's books, and thanks to Alex's comments, I think I now know why. I want to be shown the story, not told about it.

Even before I became aware of what a POV shift is, I never cared for them. I think because it tends to make the book more tell than show. To me, and remember this is JMHO, when the POV shifts from one character to another, and then back again, it's like being yanked out of the story to tell me what the other character is doing or thinking, and I'd much rather "see" the reaction through the MC's eyes. It may not be the correct deduction, but that can prove interesting later in the story when the MC finally realizes what the other person really thought.

I have a dear friend who's writing a book with compelling characters, great setting, and one terrific plot line; but I have a hard time reading it because she shifts POV constantly, sometimes four or five times in one chapter. And I'm not talking about neat, segmented shifts, but from paragraph to paragraph. It's like being in a crowded room with everyone talking at once.

And, to me, that's what POV shifts are - too many people talking at once. The din of voices make it impossible to hear what one person is saying, and dilutes the message for me. Again, that's just me. I know lots of readers don't mind POV shifts.

Thanks, ladies, for such an interesting discussion and great ideas!

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: This is interesting, and answers a lot of questions >>> -- Alex, 08:12:42 03/23/10 Tue

>I have a dear friend who's writing a book with
>compelling characters, great setting, and one terrific
>plot line; but I have a hard time reading it because
>she shifts POV constantly, sometimes four or five
>times in one chapter. And I'm not talking about neat,
>segmented shifts, but from paragraph to paragraph.
>It's like being in a crowded room with everyone
>talking at once.
>
>And, to me, that's what POV shifts are - too many
>people talking at once. The din of voices make it
>impossible to hear what one person is saying, and
>dilutes the message for me.

Exactly! Beautifully put! Like I mentioned to susiej, I reach my tolerance point and say forget it. *tossing book aside* Not worth the effort. Which is a sad thing if there's a cool story in there.

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