Re: Teacher! Teacher, look. I did my homework! >>>> -- Ladies of Lallybroch Literary Forum

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Date Posted: 19:23:54 03/21/10 Sun
Author: Alex
Subject: Re: Teacher! Teacher, look. I did my homework! >>>>
In reply to: susiej 's message, "Teacher! Teacher, look. I did my homework! >>>>" on 14:19:49 03/21/10 Sun

All right, I'm going to try and tackle the POV shifts.

>Rose leaned on her hoe [to watch] Eryna finish her row.
>The grain was in; they were planting the vegetable
>garden.

This sentence is R POV, but not very strong because of brackets.

>[Eryna didn�t have to glance up to know Rose�s
>expression was smug.] �Yes, you have the advantage of
>human practice and faerie power, but you don�t have to
>gloat about it. I am doing this as a favor to Edan,
>you know.�

This sentence is E's POV because of brackets. R wouldn't know this mental detail. It would have to be an observation on R's part to stay in her POV -- E didn't glance up because she knew I had a smug look on my face.

>Rose brushed at some dirt on her skirt. �He told me my
>faerie powers were strong�when I resisted his pulling
>charm.�

This could be either POV because of previous sentence.

>
>�Ah, in that situation, I�d say your head was strong
>and your blood was cold.�
>
>�Or that I�m simply much wiser than most young women
>for he also told me other mortal women have come to
>Faerie with him��

>Eryna dropped in the turnip seed without saying a word
>although she did glance at [Rose].

Aha! Omnicient POV. It's not R's observation because of brackets. Insert 'me' and it becomes R's POV.

>
>Ignoring the look, Rose [went on still brushing] at the
>dirt on her clothes. �You told me Edan was the last
>baby born in Faerie, yet I know human-faerie couplings
>conceive readily. So I wonder, did he bring those
>women to Faerie out of deep �friendship?�

Wavering between O POV & R's POV. Brackets describing R's actions instead of making them R's actions.

>[As Eryna stayed silent], Rose found herself babbling.
>�Did they go out of simple curiosity to see Faerie? Or
>just to know him better? He�s lived a long life, in
>human years�has he never been married�fathered a
>child?�

Wavering between O & R POV again. Describing what's happening, instead of filtering it through R -- Eryna's silence made her nervous. She found herself babbling.

>Rose finally dropped in a seed and pounded the earth a
>little harder than necessary, but she managed to still
>her tongue. When done, she looked [at Eryna] with what
>she hoped was an innocently curious expression.

Conflict of actions. What seed? Where? Last physical action with a seed was E's. R was brushing dirt off clothes. Brackets push it to O POV again. 'Up' would seat it in R's POV.

>�My,� said the faerie straightening up and fixing her
>dark eyes on [Rose]. �How casual your manner for such a
>loaded question. One would think you were acting a
>part.�

O & R POV. Replace brackets with 'Me' and solidly in R's POV.

>
>�You�re always so suspicious. I don�t think I can
>trust you. You say you aren�t in love with Edan, but
>you seem to find it so difficult to believe anyone
>else isn�t.�
>
>�Whose the suspicious one, now? I�m a faerie. I cannot
>lie.�
>
>�No, but you can sure evade questions. Are you going
>to answer me or not?�
>
>Eryna turned back to her hoe. �And why is it you don�t
>ask Edan these questions?�
>
>�I don�t see him here, do you?�
>
>�And that bothers you?�
>
>[This time,] Rose bit her lip to keep from asking, from
>screaming, [the words]-is it even possible for you to
>answer a question without another question? Instead,
>she calmly stated, �He sent you, so you get to answer
>the questions.�

O & R POV. Cut brackets and it's all R POV.
>
>�But I just asked you one, and you didn�t answer me,
>so I don�t see that I have to answer yours.�
>
>�Arrrrgggh!� Rose spun around to start a new row. [It
>was a good thing too, for if she�d seen the look on
>the faerie�s face, Rose might've thrown the hoe at her.]

Brackets are O POV. Describing the scene from overhead instead of looking out R's eyes. Better to let R see the look and fight with the desire to throw the hoe at E. (Plus the reader gets to see the look on E's face.)

>[Instead], Rose vented her ire on the earth digging a
>hole much too deep for a turnip seed. �Fine." she
>said. "I give up. Keep your secrets, Eryna, but do not
>expect me to... to go anywhere with anyone with such a
>past to hide! Don�t call me cold or stubborn or--�

Brackets establish O POV, since R didn't see the look E gave her.

>�All right,� laughed Eryna. �I�ll answer you�somewhat,
>for much that you ask should, in truth, be answered by
>Edan.�

>
>Rose kept on furiously digging holes and dropping
>seeds. Once again, she�d let Eryna pushed her into
>revealing that she cared more for these answers than
>she wanted anyone, including herself, to know.

>
>Eryna began in a tone which sounded like a lecture,
>�First you need to understand that since faeries live
>limitless years yet rarely have children, we�aren�t
>bound by the same conventions humans have when it
>comes to affairs of the heart--�
>
>�Sounds like a ruddy excuse to me for doing whatever
>you bloody want, whenever you want.�
>
>�Possibly, but one shouldn�t judge until they�ve
>walked in the shoes of another, and I must say Edan
>has always stayed loyal to the woman he
>was�with�until��
>
>�Until what?� Rose looked up into Eryna�s face.
>
>The faerie sighed, �Until the end, however it came�he
>should be the one to tell you this, but much of it
>causes him pain to speak of, not because he�s broken
>hearted,
>but because of remorse for his involvement�and the way
>things turned out.� For once, the glib faerie seemed
>to have troubling finding words. �Some left him, for
>various reasons�some died��
>
>�They became old and died�or did they just fade?�

>
>[Before Eryna could answer, Rose frowned, her quick
>thoughts already working ahead], �But, both ways would
>take some time; yet, you seem to speak of several
>women. He hasn�t lived that long.�

Shifting into O POV. Telling the reader about R, instead of letting the reader gather that R is quick thinking by her dialog.

>
>�They didn�t die from old age. Faerie women do not die
>that way.�
>
>�Oh! I�I didn�t know there were faerie women too!�
>
>Eryna�s finely shaped nostrils flared. �He is a male.
>An extremely attractive one. And there are plenty of
>attractive faerie women. And, he has lived sixty
>years. Still, it�s not as if there are dozens of women
>in his past. Although, there could�ve been, if he had
>complied. Did you expect him to pine for you before
>you were even born? Or while you were slobbering over
>your own fist in attempt to cut a tooth?�
>
>Rose glared before looking away.
>
>[But Eryna was now in a full-fledged rant and no look,
>no matter how daunting, could stop that.] �For a
>faerie, he�s considered rather serious and soulful
>especially in affairs of the heart. And ever since a
>certain someone began to grow up-though she hasn�t
>gotten very far, Edan's not so much as looked at
>another woman, although there are plenty who do
>everything they can to catch his eye. Eyes which must
>be blind or he would see the baby you are!�

Put brackets with preceding sentence and it strengthens R's POV.

>
>Eryna dug furiously while still keeping her eyes on
>Rose�s face. It was a testament to her faerie skill
>that she didn�t chop off the end of her toe.
>
>Rose breathed steadily trying not to blush. She'd
>completed another row, in record time. As she tamped
>tilled earth over a turnip seed, she watched Eryna
>work, giving the faerie time to catch up and herself
>time to get her voice under control. And think of a
>way to turn the conversation. �You�ve already told me
>half the women in faerie dream of Edan. So, who do the
>other half dream of?�
>
>There was no smirk, no chuckle or lifting of a
>condescending brow. The answer came low and grim, �You
>will find out one day, and may the Stars help us when
>you do.�
>
>Eryna turned and walked to the jug of water kept in
>the shade of an elder tree. She took a long drink and
>went back to work, but her face stayed grimly
>thoughtful. Rose got no more out of her that day.

*phew* That was some hard work. *s*

It's up to you if you want the scene to be in R's POV, susiej, but I hope my comments are a help.

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Replies:

[> [> [> Re: Teacher! Teacher, look. I did my homework! >>>> --

susiej, 19:56:08 03/21/10 Sun

Thanks, Alex! I agree it is hard to stay in Rose's POV since I don't want first person. I think I need to reread Rowlings, again. She manages to stay in Harry's POV and in third person.

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[> [> [> [> Re: Teacher! Teacher, look. I did my homework! >>>> -- Alex, 06:48:24 03/22/10 Mon

True! I wonder if the key to using Omnicient is the reader never gets any of the other character's perspectives except the MC's. That way O supports/enhances the MC. Author can get away with telling the reader things and they just attribute it to the MC. But with other characters POV's added in to a scene..then O becomes too diversified? Hmm. Reader can handle two perspectives, but a third makes it harder to focus?

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[> [> [> [> [> That's a very good point especially if the O is written with the MC's "voice." Thanks Alex, this has really helped me. >>>> -- susiej, 09:38:48 03/22/10 Mon

At 12, I read LOTR and fell hard for epic books and big casts. Tolkien slides in and out of POV through out and within a chapter- Sam's,Gollum's, Frodo's- all done for a reason and done really well- even so, his style is often too distant for modern readers. That's exactly what agents tell me- "I don't feel I know Rose well enough." "Too many older heads I don't care about"(that one really made me laugh and feel old!)

It's a problem for me because as a reader I tire of first person. I think it's why I love Voyager when so many DG fans don't- I'm so glad to get into Jamie's head for a change! And Lord John- I especially love his conflicted musings on Claire.

Anyway, it's hard for me to distance myself since I know exactly whose talking at every line-you've really helped- thanks!

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: That's a very good point especially if the O is written with the MC's "voice." Thanks Alex, this has really helped me. >>>> -- Alex, 12:43:37 03/22/10 Mon

>At 12, I read LOTR and fell hard for epic books and
>big casts. Tolkien slides in and out of POV through
>out and within a chapter- Sam's,Gollum's, Frodo's- all
>done for a reason and done really well- even so, his
>style is often too distant for modern readers. That's
>exactly what agents tell me- "I don't feel I know Rose
>well enough." "Too many older heads I don't care
>about"(that one really made me laugh and feel old!)

The nerve! They don't love all your characters? (I do. And they should too. :op)

I too fell hard for Tolkien in grade school. I can remember being torn, not wanting to take my nose out of the book I was re-reading for the umpteenth time, when my Dad prompted me to get in the car to take me to the school dance. (I should've stuck with my gut. I would've had a much better time.) Years later my husband bought me the set in a schmancy leather bound volume for my B-day. I was delighted...till I started reading it again. I remember being immersed. Gripped with tension. Fear. Oblivious to everything around me. Instead of experiencing the same thing, to my dismay I discovered I'd succumbed to what Steven King mentioned - the eventual ossification of the imaginary faculties, that is called adulthood. Waaah! I was slogging through my beloved story and *checking over shoulder, then whispering behind hand* being bored. :o| Felt like a traitor. But even though Tolkien shifts POV, it's not within the scene, is it? Back and forth? I remember it shifting and then staying there for a bit. I also remember being very frustrated when things were pretty dire in Helms Deep and the next page we're in the woods at the slow as molasses Ent council. *exasperated sigh* Now I'm like, whoa, Tolkien has a cliff hanger at the end of every chapter. Seriously predictable. How did I not realized this before? But getting back to the POV thing. I don't think he shifts from sentence to sentence between the characters POVs, does he?

>It's a problem for me because as a reader I tire of
>first person. I think it's why I love Voyager when so
>many DG fans don't- I'm so glad to get into Jamie's
>head for a change! And Lord John- I especially love
>his conflicted musings on Claire.

Agreed! But even though DG shifts, it's still just that character's POV through the scene, right?

>Anyway, it's hard for me to distance myself since I
>know exactly whose talking at every line-you've really
>helped- thanks!

A friend of mine told me once to prioritize what's important for the reader to know in the scene. Scale of 1-10. Anything below a 5 gets cut. I hated doing that. I wanted it all to be important to the reader. But gritting my teeth, I did what they asked and discovered the scene was a lot easier to read afterwards and there were less POV shifts. She kept after me to prioritize the top five now. Pretty soon I didn't hate the exercise so much when I realized by cutting the less than necessary the scene became more vivid. No confusion. No multiple ways to interpret actions and dialog. At the time it felt like I was killing my baby, but it was a huge help in getting me to see the scene on paper more clearly.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Tolkien may not shift back and forth between sentences but he does shift inside scenes>>> -- susiej, 14:55:56 03/22/10 Mon

I just reread the Hobbit and he shifts, for example, into the Master of Lakewood's thoughts for a paragraph, and then back out to say, Brands or O. Though he's often in Bilbo's he doesn't stay there or stay very close.

And Juliet Marillier shifts from Bridei into Tuala during a scene but then stays with Tuala for a long time. I see this now when I wouldn't have before because I've become so sensitive about it.

The only time I rember it throwing me to where I went, huh? was in Ranger's Apprentice when the whole book is in Will's POV and then he slips once into Halt's toward the end. And again, if I'd read that years ago, don't know that I wouldn't have noticed it. But now, I'm ruined. (grin)

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Tolkien may not shift back and forth between sentences but he does shift inside scenes>>> -- Alex, 16:46:15 03/22/10 Mon

So what's the secret to making shifting POV clear? If the O is really strong, then the reader unconsciously grasps they'll get little flits into the character's heads? O has them by the hand and tells them the lead in to who'd be talking? When I re-read Tolkien as an adult I found myself frustrated that he told the story, rather than showed it, something I never noticed as a child. Early on in FOTR there's a line like...if they only looked back they'd see the wraiths after them. Annoyed me to no end. *ggg* But I guess as a kid you're used to being told stuff and your imagination expands from there. As an adult I found the telling took away all the suspense.

I know the In Death books by J.D. Robb shifts POV, but there I think it's more each character's voice and observations is distinct to keep the reader on track. Roark and Eve don't talk or think the same way...does the O set up the shifts too?

I haven't read the other stories you mentioned. Sorry.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Alex>> -- susiej, 18:05:20 03/22/10 Mon

I think Tolkien gets away with it because there really isn't one MC. It sort of centers on Frodo particularly in the beginning, but by the end even in the Frodo chapters, its more in Sam's POV. And the others all gain a voice as it goes on but still, yes, always, always the O is strong.

Do you read Dorohy Dunnett? She's hardly ever in the MC's head and many find her too hard to read, but I love it- the MCS are such enigmas and it makes for great discussion-and by the end you're just rooting for them and hating all the other characters who constantly misundertand/mistrust them, but many people can't get that far and dislike her books.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Alex>> -- Alex, 08:00:40 03/23/10 Tue

I haven't read any Dunnett, but I'm putting her on my TBR list! *s* Lately I've been on a faerie kick. Patricia A. McKillip. Melisa Marr. And I stumbled upon *be still my heart* Holly Black. I found myself so immersed and emotionally engaged in her stories that I never noticed style or the mechanics of how she writes. High praise from me! *s* I'm eagerly awaiting her latest, due out in May. She has multiple POV's throughout, but not within the same scene...but she just released an anthology of short stories The Poison Eaters and one vignette revisits the characters in her Tithe, Valiant, Ironside series. The POV does shift back and forth. Repeatedly. It reads clean though and it's very clear who's talking as it switches between the King of the Unseelie Court and a twenty something guy who are both suffering insecurities about their love lives. Suffering the same insecurities. *s* Which is fascinating since the guy it gay and the king is a faerie and both their thought processes and how they handle themselves are distinctly different, but driven by the same feelings. How does she manage to do that? No idea. *ggg* So I like reading a shifting POV, that gives me peeks into the different character's heads, but I don't enjoy a wavering POV at all. There the story feels muzzy and confusing and I spend a lot of time trying to figure out what's going on, till I'm eventually annoyed to the point I won't read it anymore.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> This is interesting, and answers a lot of questions >>> -- Page, 21:06:28 03/22/10 Mon

I've never been a fan of Tolkien's books, and thanks to Alex's comments, I think I now know why. I want to be shown the story, not told about it.

Even before I became aware of what a POV shift is, I never cared for them. I think because it tends to make the book more tell than show. To me, and remember this is JMHO, when the POV shifts from one character to another, and then back again, it's like being yanked out of the story to tell me what the other character is doing or thinking, and I'd much rather "see" the reaction through the MC's eyes. It may not be the correct deduction, but that can prove interesting later in the story when the MC finally realizes what the other person really thought.

I have a dear friend who's writing a book with compelling characters, great setting, and one terrific plot line; but I have a hard time reading it because she shifts POV constantly, sometimes four or five times in one chapter. And I'm not talking about neat, segmented shifts, but from paragraph to paragraph. It's like being in a crowded room with everyone talking at once.

And, to me, that's what POV shifts are - too many people talking at once. The din of voices make it impossible to hear what one person is saying, and dilutes the message for me. Again, that's just me. I know lots of readers don't mind POV shifts.

Thanks, ladies, for such an interesting discussion and great ideas!

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: This is interesting, and answers a lot of questions >>> -- Alex, 08:12:42 03/23/10 Tue

>I have a dear friend who's writing a book with
>compelling characters, great setting, and one terrific
>plot line; but I have a hard time reading it because
>she shifts POV constantly, sometimes four or five
>times in one chapter. And I'm not talking about neat,
>segmented shifts, but from paragraph to paragraph.
>It's like being in a crowded room with everyone
>talking at once.
>
>And, to me, that's what POV shifts are - too many
>people talking at once. The din of voices make it
>impossible to hear what one person is saying, and
>dilutes the message for me.

Exactly! Beautifully put! Like I mentioned to susiej, I reach my tolerance point and say forget it. *tossing book aside* Not worth the effort. Which is a sad thing if there's a cool story in there.

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