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Date Posted: Fri, Feb 01, 03:47:22pm CST
Author: Dan McD.
Author Host/IP: 74-36-148-240.dr01.nwmd.wi.frontiernet.net / 74.36.148.240
Subject: Re: Just wondering??
In reply to: Rex 's message, "Re: Just wondering??" on Thu, Jan 31, 05:41:47pm CST

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Just curious... What are folks
>thoughts
>>>>on
>>>>>>>>>dogs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>bred
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>for coon in the Carolinas or southern
>>>>>>swamps
>>>>>>>>>vs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>bear
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>bred dogs for Wi. and MN. vs cat dogs
>>>for
>>>>>>>>>>>Montana
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Idaho. Will they all be bred the same
>>>for
>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>>>>>>same
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>traits, size etc?? Never bear or cat
>>>>>hunted
>>>>>>>>>>>>>myself.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Never hunted in bear or cat country
>>>>>either.
>>>>>>>>>But
>>>>>>>>>>>I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>believe the differnt terrain and game
>>>>>would
>>>>>>>>>>>cause
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>breeders to breed a little different
>>dog
>>>>>>>than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>maybe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>coon hunter in the midwest. With that
>>>>said
>>>>>>>if
>>>>>>>>>>>all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>these dogs were lets say walkers in
>the
>>>>>>>>>>>beginning
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>had bred for generations in these
>>>regions
>>>>>>>for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>seperate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>jobs are they still all the same breed
>>>or
>>>>>>>>>what?
>>>>>>>>>>>I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>believe yes but some folks don't seem
>>to
>>>>>>>>think
>>>>>>>>>>>>so.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>really think that a dog bred and
>raised
>>>>by
>>>>>>a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>seasoned
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>bear hunter in WA. for generations may
>>>>>>>differ
>>>>>>>>>>>>from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>dog here in OHIO from the same
>>>foundation
>>>>>>>>>stock
>>>>>>>>>>>>>but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>bred for generations for coon
>hunting.I
>>>>>>know
>>>>>>>>>>>when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>was a kid dogs from open country like
>>>>>>Kansas
>>>>>>>>>>and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Oklahoma tended to be a good bit
>bigger
>>>>>>than
>>>>>>>>>>>dogs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>raised here in Ohio and Indiana where
>>>>live
>>>>>>>>>>stock
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>woven
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>wire fences were common.I think a bear
>>>>>bred
>>>>>>>>>>>>>leopard
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Ca. vs a coon bred leopard here in
>Ohio
>>>>>are
>>>>>>>>>>both
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>leopards.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> good point, Perry. Selective breeding
>>>>can
>>>>>>>>>>>result
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>differing dogs, from same pedigrees.
>>Bear
>>>>>>>bred
>>>>>>>>>>>>dogs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>our area must be powerful hard running
>>>>dogs
>>>>>>>>>that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>take a lot of punishment from the
>>terrain
>>>>>>and
>>>>>>>>>>>long
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>hrs. they do not have to be extremly
>>>quick
>>>>>>>>>>>>>locators,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>or have to be lay up dogs, but dogs of
>>>>this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>breeding
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>can do all this. Bobcat and gray fox
>>dogs
>>>>>>>must
>>>>>>>>>>be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>able
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>to push a track and not let the critter
>>>>>rest
>>>>>>>>>>when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>plays its tricks, and must also be very
>>>>>good
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>locators
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>unlike a beardog. Coon dog has to be
>>>agood
>>>>>>>>>track
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>dog,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>and if a hunter wants a really good
>dog,
>>>>>the
>>>>>>>>>dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>must
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>be a lay up and pressure tree dog, and
>>>>>split
>>>>>>>>>>>tree.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Many of our origanal dogs were good at
>>>>most
>>>>>>>of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>these
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>things. My question is; how well will a
>>>>dog
>>>>>>>>>used
>>>>>>>>>>>>>for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>only for big game, retain the traits
>>>>needed
>>>>>>>to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>excell
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>as a coon dog over several generations?
>>>>>>Also,
>>>>>>>>>if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>bred
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>for slow trailing , how many
>generations
>>>>>>will
>>>>>>>>>>>they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>retain the heads up, run to
>>>>>>catch,mentality?
>>>>>>>>>>>>Maybe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>would have two breeds, but which is a
>>>Cur,
>>>>>>>and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>which
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>is a trail hound? Rex
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Rex my opinion we are allredy heading
>>down
>>>>>>>that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>trail
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>with the use of selective breeding for
>>>>>>>>different
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>game.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog are very ez to change in the breed
>in
>>>>>>only
>>>>>>>>3
>>>>>>>>>>>>>gen.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>you can change things alot if you take
>and
>>>>>>>breed
>>>>>>>>>>>for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>that one thing that you want. evolution
>>>>takes
>>>>>>>>>time
>>>>>>>>>>>>>but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>with dogs it does not take as long. take
>>>the
>>>>>>>>farm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>raised fox back when they started to
>raise
>>>>>fox
>>>>>>>>in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>pins
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>some would bite you and go crazy in the
>>>pin.
>>>>>a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>professor dread only the fox that would
>>not
>>>>>>>bite
>>>>>>>>>>>>when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>you put your hand in the cage in 3 gen
>>they
>>>>>>had
>>>>>>>>>>>pups
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>that would not bite but liked people and
>>>the
>>>>>>>>>color
>>>>>>>>>>>>>had
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>changed. so with anybody trying to get
>>>>>>>something
>>>>>>>>>>>>that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>works for them you are going to change
>>>>things
>>>>>>>>>with
>>>>>>>>>>>>in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the breed. in the end you can not have a
>>>>>>>>>different
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>breed just traits. hmmmmm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I've always thought that it was crazy for
>>>>guys
>>>>>>>to
>>>>>>>>>>>pay
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>30K for a dog when all of it's ancestors
>>>>>>>werebred
>>>>>>>>>>>>for,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>raised and trained on, and evaluated for
>>>>>>>breeding
>>>>>>>>>>>for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>hunting coon. That same guy could have
>>gone
>>>>>>and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>bought a 5K to 7K cat dog and broke it
>from
>>>>>>cats
>>>>>>>>>>and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>started running it on coon and had at
>least
>>>>as
>>>>>>>>>good
>>>>>>>>>>>a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>dog. This is however ignoring all of the
>>>>>>>>>>marketable
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>things that don't actually have to do with
>>>>>>>>>ability,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>such as the right look, the right pedigree
>>>>and
>>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>right previous owner. At any rate, dogs
>>>that
>>>>>>>are
>>>>>>>>>>>>tops
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>on cats and gray fox have to come with
>much
>>>>>>more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>talent than a coon dog. If you have
>hunted
>>>>>>with
>>>>>>>>>>>that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>kind of dog, it's easy to see. The very
>>>best
>>>>>>>cat
>>>>>>>>>>>>dogs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>that I have been to the woods with have
>>>been:
>>>>>>1.
>>>>>>>>A
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>grade walker named Rocket. He was the
>very
>>>>>>best
>>>>>>>>>>>from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>truck to tree. 2. A moutnain cur named
>>>>Pepper
>>>>>>>>>that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>became good at cats late in life and is
>>>still
>>>>>>>>>going
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>strong at age 11. 3. A crossbred dog
>named
>>>>>>Camo
>>>>>>>>>>>who,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>as the name implies, is out of Wick's Camo
>>>>>>Jug.
>>>>>>>>>>Her
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>mother is a 1/2 border collie and 1/2
>>>Plott.
>>>>>>>She
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>caught more cats on the ground in a row
>>than
>>>>>>any
>>>>>>>>>>dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I've ever herd of. She is quite an
>>>>astounding
>>>>>>>>dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>also still alive. Coincedentaly Pepper,
>>the
>>>>>>>mtn.
>>>>>>>>>>>>cur,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>was hunted mostly on coon. She was later
>>>>>>bought
>>>>>>>>>>and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>retrained on cat. So there are
>>exceptions.
>>>>>On
>>>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>other side of things, some of the very
>best
>>>>>cat
>>>>>>>>>>dogs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>come out of kennels that never run cats,
>>>only
>>>>>>>>>>coon.
>>>>>>>>>>>>I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>don't think it's very easy to make a
>>blanket
>>>>>>>>>>>>statement
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>on this subject but if I had to put down a
>>>>bet
>>>>>>i
>>>>>>>>>>>>would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>go with the statement, They Would Be
>>>>>>Different.
>>>>>>>>I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>feel that it has more to do with the
>>breeder
>>>>>>>>>>though.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Cat dogs. I think that this type of dog is
>>>>very
>>>>>>>>>hard
>>>>>>>>>>>>>to find let alone have a breeding program
>>>that
>>>>>>>>>would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>produce them. Most good bare ground cat
>>>>hunters
>>>>>>>>>that
>>>>>>>>>>>I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>have seen, use a pack of dogs because one
>>>just
>>>>>>>>>can't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>do it with consistency. Snow makes it
>easier
>>>>>but
>>>>>>>>>not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>easy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>One more thing. If leopard cur breeders can
>>>>>breed
>>>>>>>>>>dogs
>>>>>>>>>>>>that will consistently catch bare ground
>cat,
>>>>>>they
>>>>>>>>>>>>will become the most popular coon dog in the
>>>>US.
>>>>>>>>>>> Tommy, I know that you are a serious cat
>>>>hunter,
>>>>>>>>>>>always looking for a better dog. Breed is not
>>>>>your
>>>>>>>>>>>priority, catching a cat is. I have a friend,
>>>>>that
>>>>>>>>>>>catches more game, of all kinds, than any
>>>>>breeder.
>>>>>>>>He
>>>>>>>>>>>gets his dogs from shelters, watches for
>>>traits.
>>>>>>>>He's
>>>>>>>>>>>had weenie dogs, German sheps, his best was a
>>>>>long
>>>>>>>>>>>haired chiwawa SP? this dog only weighed
>eight
>>>>>>>>>pounds.
>>>>>>>>>>>He caught over a thousand coon, and more
>>>>>squirrel,
>>>>>>>>>>>with Brownie. I hunted with him a lot. This
>>man
>>>>>>>>>>>wouldn't own a hound. He also catches more,
>>and
>>>>>>>>>larger
>>>>>>>>>>>bass than anyone I know; sight fishes, not an
>>>>>>>>angler.
>>>>>>>>>>>My point, we are breeding a breed that
>>>>reproduces
>>>>>>>>its
>>>>>>>>>>>likeness. Thats our goal, to breed Leopards,
>>>and
>>>>>>>>>>>improve them. Personally, I beleive our breed
>>>is
>>>>>>>>>large
>>>>>>>>>>>enough to have these differing strains, and
>>>>still
>>>>>>>be
>>>>>>>>>a
>>>>>>>>>>>breed. But if I were a serious cat and gray
>>fox
>>>>>>>>>>>hunter, I'd hunt July crosses,they can catch
>>>>>them,
>>>>>>>>>but
>>>>>>>>>>>very few make top coon dog.I say it takes a
>>>>>>smarter
>>>>>>>>>>>dog, to make a TOP NOTCH coon dog, but thats
>>>>just
>>>>>>>my
>>>>>>>>>>>opipion...Rex
>>>>>>>>>>Rex, you are right. Cat dogs are just hard to
>>>>find
>>>>>>>>and
>>>>>>>>>>some of the best that I have seen are mixed up
>>>>>>every
>>>>>>>>>>which way. Also, most were owned by an
>>>>exceptional
>>>>>>>>>>hunter. The latter may have been the main
>>>>>>>ingredient.
>>>>>>>>>>Maybe the reason I have so much trouble. I
>>don't
>>>>>>>know
>>>>>>>>>>whether it takes a smarter dog to make a top
>>>>notch
>>>>>>>>>>coon dog but I think that a top notch cat dog
>>is
>>>>>>>>>>harder to find. I don't think that the style
>of
>>>a
>>>>>>>top
>>>>>>>>>>cat dog would suit a lot of coon hunters.
>>>>However,
>>>>>>>>>>this type dog would catch all the coons one
>>>would
>>>>>>>>want
>>>>>>>>>>but not coon dog style. Julys are hard to come
>>>by
>>>>>>>>>>around here. Don't know of anyone who has
>>>running
>>>>>>>>>>dogs. Too many roads and new houses. Would
>like
>>>>to
>>>>>>>>>>find a half July that would look up but I got
>>>>>>enough
>>>>>>>>>>young dogs to mess with now. I also do not
>like
>>>>>the
>>>>>>>>>>way most Julys are wired. At my age there
>will
>>>>be
>>>>>>>>>>more coon hunting than cat hunting from now
>on.
>>>I
>>>>>>>>like
>>>>>>>>>>the style of my young leps so far. They will
>do
>>>>ok
>>>>>>>on
>>>>>>>>>>coon and, if they do good on cat, that is the
>>>>>>bonus.
>>>>>>>>>>Had a good cat race last night but likely went
>>>to
>>>>>>>>>>ground in rock ledge. Had my mountain curs on
>>it
>>>>>>and
>>>>>>>>>>they drove it hard. They will not tree in a
>>hole
>>>>>>>>>>unless they can see something. Got them as
>pups
>>>>>and
>>>>>>>>>>hoped they would be silent on cat. They are
>>>>silent
>>>>>>>on
>>>>>>>>>>coon but flat open on cat and can move one
>out.
>>>>>>They
>>>>>>>>>>can cold trail a little buy won't work a cold
>>>>>track
>>>>>>>>>>very long.
>>>>>>>>>>tp
>>>>>>>>> Tommy, I'm with you on finding good dogs; cat
>>or
>>>>>>>coon
>>>>>>>>>dog. Some coon dogs can be found, but not many
>>of
>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>>>kind we like. Can a trained cat dog be bought,
>>in
>>>>>>our
>>>>>>>>>part of the world ?? I'm sure they are out
>west,
>>>>>but
>>>>>>>>>how about around here? Russ Barney gave me a
>>>>>trained
>>>>>>>>>cat dog, out of a female I sent out there, and
>>>>his
>>>>>>>>>Buster dog. She was a nice dog, but had no idea
>>>>how
>>>>>>>to
>>>>>>>>>hunt around here, roads,houses,etc.She got ran
>>>>>over,
>>>>>>>>>crossing a hiway last spring.Was after trailing
>>a
>>>>>>>cat,
>>>>>>>>>at a good clip, and it turned up the creek
>>toward
>>>>a
>>>>>>>>>busy HWY. Tried to catch up but didnt get there
>>>in
>>>>>>>>>time. Burying good dogs has just about done me
>>>in.
>>>>>>>>>Around here, a dog MUST handle perfect, or keep
>>>>>>shock
>>>>>>>>>collar on to p[revent this sort of thing, our
>>>>>>country
>>>>>>>>>is going fast. How well do you like the Mtn
>>Curs?
>>>>>>Rex
>>>>>>>> Good dogs from our west sometimes don't work
>out
>>>>so
>>>>>>>>well here or they take some time to adjust. It
>>>>works
>>>>>>>>the other way too. The mountain curs do ok but
>>>they
>>>>>>>>don't hunt out like I would like but that is the
>>>>>>>>nature of most of them. They will not work a
>cold
>>>>>>>>trail very long. They can smell a bad track but
>>>>will
>>>>>>>>not work it for a long time. They are silent on
>>>>coon
>>>>>>>>but flat open on a jumped cat. Wish they were
>>>>silent
>>>>>>>>on jumped cat. They tree back off tree and wind
>>>>real
>>>>>>>>good. If something moves in tree they see it.
>>They
>>>>>>are
>>>>>>>>fast.
>>>>>>>>They are brother and sister and not yet three.
>>Got
>>>>>>>>some learning to do. I don't get on enough cats
>>>>>>around
>>>>>>>>here. Problems with locked gates and deer leases
>>>>>that
>>>>>>>>I used not to have. You got to run a lot of
>cats
>>>>>for
>>>>>>>>dogs to learn how to run them. They are smart or
>>>>the
>>>>>>>>the female is.
>>>>>>>>tp
>>>>>>> The Julys I had were silent trailers, and tight
>>on
>>>>a
>>>>>>>jumped cat or gray fox. Poor cold trailers,but
>>sure
>>>>>>>could keep them moving when jumped,the closer
>they
>>>>>got
>>>>>>>the less they barked.Knew by scent when a fox was
>>>>>>>tired and sinply hushed and caught them. Had two
>>>>that
>>>>>>>treed good. NONE that handled! Just about
>couldn't
>>>>>>>catch them unless they were bayed, treed, or run
>>>>>down.
>>>>>>>Most of these were bred out midwest, didn't bark
>>>>near
>>>>>>>enough to suit fox hunters here. There is
>>something
>>>>>to
>>>>>>>be said, about using dogs from local breeders.
>>>Guess
>>>>>>>this brings full circle to what Perry
>questioned?
>>>>>Rex
>>>>>>
>>>>>>some interesting posts! thanks all perry
>>>>>Rex, have used running walkers. Most running
>walkers
>>>>>or running dogs that I have seen are just not wired
>>>>>right for me. Kind of like the ones you described.
>>>>>However, I saw some Triggs out of California that
>>>>>were level headed, big built and loud mouth and
>>would
>>>>>tree but not hard and were silent on cold track.
>>They
>>>>>were good dogs and when crossed on treeing walkers,
>>>>>they produced really good dogs.
>>>>>tp
>>>> Yeah, I,ve talked with several guys out there that
>>>>use that breeding for varmint dogs. There is also a
>>>>strain of "Treeing Trigg" I,ve read about out there,
>>>>was reg way back 1940s. The guys I hear from cross
>in
>>>>a little Treeing Walker, in the Triggs. I,d say they
>>>>are real similiar to the Julys I had. But you know,
>>>>Tommy, most Julys are about worthless now, been bred
>>>>to run long hrs in a pen, not for hunting. But I,m
>>>>sure there were some really good ones before the
>pens
>>>>came along. Why do these people breed the smarts
>out
>>>>of a good strain ?? Thats what special about these
>>>>Leps, real smart. And I don't think it'l make them
>>>>dumd to call them a hound, only if breeders breed
>>them
>>>>that way, and Idon't know any that want that! Rex
>>>No running dogs around here. Same story as other
>>>places. Pavement and houses. A hunter named Sonny
>>>Turner in California had Triggs. The ones I saw where
>>>in Washington and owned by Jesse Caswell who was a
>>>bear hunter hired by timber companies to kill bear
>and
>>>he could do it. He got them from Turner. They were
>>>big and loud and really put together. They were tight
>>>mouthed on track and not hard tree dogs but treed. I
>>>think Turner got his dogs out of Kentucky. He hit pay
>>>dirt. However, when he tried to get more from
>>>Kentucky, they never were the same as that first
>>>bunch. This is second hand info. They bred the Triggs
>>>that worked down from the first bunch they got. Don't
>>>know if that line is still going.
>>>The name of a breed doesn't mean much but leopard
>>>hound just doesn't seem right. Time will change that.
>>>The way things are going, it won't be long until we
>>>have coon pens or we will have to walk hunt with Jack
>>>Russells. We sure had it better years ago than the
>>>young hunters do today.
>>>tp
>>
>>You know it is a little funny. I collect old Full Cry
>>magazines. I have read articles from the 40's 50's and
>>60's where they talk about hunting territory
>>disappearing due to roads, houses etc. I had a visitor
>>from Japan here and we visited several local farms. My
>>visitor said farming in Japan was disappearing due to
>>lack of ground. While I was taking them around it hit
>>me just how many small family farms had disappeared in
>>the 30 years I have lived in this area. Woods gone
>>comletely. I lost 5 patches completely in just 1
>>summer. Fence rows gone! Ditches cleaned out and trees
>>removed. I sure hope my grand kids get a chance to
>>hunt but it is not looking real good. In my area a 20
>>acre patch of timber is good sized. Most are 5-10
>>acres. Houses and roads everywhere. And the city folk
>>moving on the little parcels are the worst!! They want
>>to rule everything around them. It is gonna get
>>tougher for sure!
> tougher for sure. Ten years ago i had a dozen places
>to coon hunt in five minute drive. I ran my Julys from
>the back yard. We have plenty game, but houses, busy
>roads and cars, and those crazy people that moved down
>here! It's so different I just don't enjoy coonhunting
>in lawns! To many alpacas, Boer goats, etc, to even
>consider running dogs. When I was young fox hunters
>had never heard of a pen.No deer.No posted land. Coons
>fed on creeks and farm land, not trash cans. Bought a
>place way up in the mountains, and don't you know it,
>they started developing all the land up there also.
>Those who still live where you can hunt anywhere you
>like, be thankful! Jack Russells and little bitty dogs
>will be it, around here soon. I can still smell the
>campfire where the foxhunters cast their packs in my
>mind. Hear a milk cow's bell.or the nearest neighbors
>beagles running; no traffic! Man, was life better
>then. Rex

To all of the young guys out there...GO WEST YOUNG MAN! GO WEST! There is room out there. You have to get where your free before you start a family. In most cases, that is what is keeping many of us from moving to better hunting grounds. Family first is a great thing but covering your butt before it becomes an issue is just smart thinking.

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