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Date Posted: Thu, Jan 31, 02:31:19pm CST
Author: Perry
Author Host/IP: cache-dtc-aa09.proxy.aol.com / 205.188.116.13
Subject: Re: Just wondering??
In reply to: Tommy Prince 's message, "Re: Just wondering??" on Thu, Jan 31, 07:36:01am CST

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Just curious... What are folks thoughts
>>on
>>>>>>>dogs
>>>>>>>>>>>>bred
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>for coon in the Carolinas or southern
>>>>swamps
>>>>>>>vs
>>>>>>>>>>>>bear
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>bred dogs for Wi. and MN. vs cat dogs
>for
>>>>>>>>>Montana
>>>>>>>>>>>>>and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Idaho. Will they all be bred the same
>for
>>>>>the
>>>>>>>>>>same
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>traits, size etc?? Never bear or cat
>>>hunted
>>>>>>>>>>>myself.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Never hunted in bear or cat country
>>>either.
>>>>>>>But
>>>>>>>>>I
>>>>>>>>>>>>do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>believe the differnt terrain and game
>>>would
>>>>>>>>>cause
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>breeders to breed a little different dog
>>>>>than
>>>>>>>>>>>maybe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>coon hunter in the midwest. With that
>>said
>>>>>if
>>>>>>>>>all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>these dogs were lets say walkers in the
>>>>>>>>>beginning
>>>>>>>>>>>>>and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>had bred for generations in these
>regions
>>>>>for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>seperate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>jobs are they still all the same breed
>or
>>>>>>>what?
>>>>>>>>>I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>believe yes but some folks don't seem to
>>>>>>think
>>>>>>>>>>so.
>>>>>>>>>>>>I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>really think that a dog bred and raised
>>by
>>>>a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>seasoned
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>bear hunter in WA. for generations may
>>>>>differ
>>>>>>>>>>from
>>>>>>>>>>>>a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>dog here in OHIO from the same
>foundation
>>>>>>>stock
>>>>>>>>>>>but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>bred for generations for coon hunting.I
>>>>know
>>>>>>>>>when
>>>>>>>>>>>I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>was a kid dogs from open country like
>>>>Kansas
>>>>>>>>and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Oklahoma tended to be a good bit bigger
>>>>than
>>>>>>>>>dogs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>raised here in Ohio and Indiana where
>>live
>>>>>>>>stock
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>woven
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>wire fences were common.I think a bear
>>>bred
>>>>>>>>>>>leopard
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Ca. vs a coon bred leopard here in Ohio
>>>are
>>>>>>>>both
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>leopards.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> good point, Perry. Selective breeding
>>can
>>>>>>>>>result
>>>>>>>>>>>>in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>differing dogs, from same pedigrees. Bear
>>>>>bred
>>>>>>>>>>dogs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>our area must be powerful hard running
>>dogs
>>>>>>>that
>>>>>>>>>>>can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>take a lot of punishment from the terrain
>>>>and
>>>>>>>>>long
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>hrs. they do not have to be extremly
>quick
>>>>>>>>>>>locators,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>or have to be lay up dogs, but dogs of
>>this
>>>>>>>>>>>breeding
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>can do all this. Bobcat and gray fox dogs
>>>>>must
>>>>>>>>be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>able
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>to push a track and not let the critter
>>>rest
>>>>>>>>when
>>>>>>>>>>>it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>plays its tricks, and must also be very
>>>good
>>>>>>>>>>>>locators
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>unlike a beardog. Coon dog has to be
>agood
>>>>>>>track
>>>>>>>>>>>>dog,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>and if a hunter wants a really good dog,
>>>the
>>>>>>>dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>must
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>be a lay up and pressure tree dog, and
>>>split
>>>>>>>>>tree.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Many of our origanal dogs were good at
>>most
>>>>>of
>>>>>>>>>>>these
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>things. My question is; how well will a
>>dog
>>>>>>>used
>>>>>>>>>>>for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>only for big game, retain the traits
>>needed
>>>>>to
>>>>>>>>>>>>excell
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>as a coon dog over several generations?
>>>>Also,
>>>>>>>if
>>>>>>>>>>>>bred
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>for slow trailing , how many generations
>>>>will
>>>>>>>>>they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>retain the heads up, run to
>>>>catch,mentality?
>>>>>>>>>>Maybe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>would have two breeds, but which is a
>Cur,
>>>>>and
>>>>>>>>>>>which
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>is a trail hound? Rex
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Rex my opinion we are allredy heading down
>>>>>that
>>>>>>>>>>>trail
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>with the use of selective breeding for
>>>>>>different
>>>>>>>>>>>>game.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog are very ez to change in the breed in
>>>>only
>>>>>>3
>>>>>>>>>>>gen.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>you can change things alot if you take and
>>>>>breed
>>>>>>>>>for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>that one thing that you want. evolution
>>takes
>>>>>>>time
>>>>>>>>>>>but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>with dogs it does not take as long. take
>the
>>>>>>farm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>raised fox back when they started to raise
>>>fox
>>>>>>in
>>>>>>>>>>>pins
>>>>>>>>>>>>>some would bite you and go crazy in the
>pin.
>>>a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>professor dread only the fox that would not
>>>>>bite
>>>>>>>>>>when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>you put your hand in the cage in 3 gen they
>>>>had
>>>>>>>>>pups
>>>>>>>>>>>>>that would not bite but liked people and
>the
>>>>>>>color
>>>>>>>>>>>had
>>>>>>>>>>>>>changed. so with anybody trying to get
>>>>>something
>>>>>>>>>>that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>works for them you are going to change
>>things
>>>>>>>with
>>>>>>>>>>in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>the breed. in the end you can not have a
>>>>>>>different
>>>>>>>>>>>>>breed just traits. hmmmmm
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>I've always thought that it was crazy for
>>guys
>>>>>to
>>>>>>>>>pay
>>>>>>>>>>>>30K for a dog when all of it's ancestors
>>>>>werebred
>>>>>>>>>>for,
>>>>>>>>>>>>raised and trained on, and evaluated for
>>>>>breeding
>>>>>>>>>for
>>>>>>>>>>>>hunting coon. That same guy could have gone
>>>>and
>>>>>>>>>>>>bought a 5K to 7K cat dog and broke it from
>>>>cats
>>>>>>>>and
>>>>>>>>>>>>started running it on coon and had at least
>>as
>>>>>>>good
>>>>>>>>>a
>>>>>>>>>>>>dog. This is however ignoring all of the
>>>>>>>>marketable
>>>>>>>>>>>>things that don't actually have to do with
>>>>>>>ability,
>>>>>>>>>>>>such as the right look, the right pedigree
>>and
>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>>>>>>right previous owner. At any rate, dogs
>that
>>>>>are
>>>>>>>>>>tops
>>>>>>>>>>>>on cats and gray fox have to come with much
>>>>more
>>>>>>>>>>>>talent than a coon dog. If you have hunted
>>>>with
>>>>>>>>>that
>>>>>>>>>>>>kind of dog, it's easy to see. The very
>best
>>>>>cat
>>>>>>>>>>dogs
>>>>>>>>>>>>that I have been to the woods with have
>been:
>>>>1.
>>>>>>A
>>>>>>>>>>>>grade walker named Rocket. He was the very
>>>>best
>>>>>>>>>from
>>>>>>>>>>>>truck to tree. 2. A moutnain cur named
>>Pepper
>>>>>>>that
>>>>>>>>>>>>became good at cats late in life and is
>still
>>>>>>>going
>>>>>>>>>>>>strong at age 11. 3. A crossbred dog named
>>>>Camo
>>>>>>>>>who,
>>>>>>>>>>>>as the name implies, is out of Wick's Camo
>>>>Jug.
>>>>>>>>Her
>>>>>>>>>>>>mother is a 1/2 border collie and 1/2
>Plott.
>>>>>She
>>>>>>>>>>>>caught more cats on the ground in a row than
>>>>any
>>>>>>>>dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>I've ever herd of. She is quite an
>>astounding
>>>>>>dog
>>>>>>>>>>and
>>>>>>>>>>>>also still alive. Coincedentaly Pepper, the
>>>>>mtn.
>>>>>>>>>>cur,
>>>>>>>>>>>>was hunted mostly on coon. She was later
>>>>bought
>>>>>>>>and
>>>>>>>>>>>>retrained on cat. So there are exceptions.
>>>On
>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>>>>>>other side of things, some of the very best
>>>cat
>>>>>>>>dogs
>>>>>>>>>>>>come out of kennels that never run cats,
>only
>>>>>>>>coon.
>>>>>>>>>>I
>>>>>>>>>>>>don't think it's very easy to make a blanket
>>>>>>>>>>statement
>>>>>>>>>>>>on this subject but if I had to put down a
>>bet
>>>>i
>>>>>>>>>>would
>>>>>>>>>>>>go with the statement, They Would Be
>>>>Different.
>>>>>>I
>>>>>>>>>>>>feel that it has more to do with the breeder
>>>>>>>>though.
>>>>>>>>>>>Cat dogs. I think that this type of dog is
>>very
>>>>>>>hard
>>>>>>>>>>>to find let alone have a breeding program
>that
>>>>>>>would
>>>>>>>>>>>produce them. Most good bare ground cat
>>hunters
>>>>>>>that
>>>>>>>>>I
>>>>>>>>>>>have seen, use a pack of dogs because one
>just
>>>>>>>can't
>>>>>>>>>>>do it with consistency. Snow makes it easier
>>>but
>>>>>>>not
>>>>>>>>>>>easy.
>>>>>>>>>>One more thing. If leopard cur breeders can
>>>breed
>>>>>>>>dogs
>>>>>>>>>>that will consistently catch bare ground cat,
>>>>they
>>>>>>>>>>will become the most popular coon dog in the
>>US.
>>>>>>>>> Tommy, I know that you are a serious cat
>>hunter,
>>>>>>>>>always looking for a better dog. Breed is not
>>>your
>>>>>>>>>priority, catching a cat is. I have a friend,
>>>that
>>>>>>>>>catches more game, of all kinds, than any
>>>breeder.
>>>>>>He
>>>>>>>>>gets his dogs from shelters, watches for
>traits.
>>>>>>He's
>>>>>>>>>had weenie dogs, German sheps, his best was a
>>>long
>>>>>>>>>haired chiwawa SP? this dog only weighed eight
>>>>>>>pounds.
>>>>>>>>>He caught over a thousand coon, and more
>>>squirrel,
>>>>>>>>>with Brownie. I hunted with him a lot. This man
>>>>>>>>>wouldn't own a hound. He also catches more, and
>>>>>>>larger
>>>>>>>>>bass than anyone I know; sight fishes, not an
>>>>>>angler.
>>>>>>>>>My point, we are breeding a breed that
>>reproduces
>>>>>>its
>>>>>>>>>likeness. Thats our goal, to breed Leopards,
>and
>>>>>>>>>improve them. Personally, I beleive our breed
>is
>>>>>>>large
>>>>>>>>>enough to have these differing strains, and
>>still
>>>>>be
>>>>>>>a
>>>>>>>>>breed. But if I were a serious cat and gray fox
>>>>>>>>>hunter, I'd hunt July crosses,they can catch
>>>them,
>>>>>>>but
>>>>>>>>>very few make top coon dog.I say it takes a
>>>>smarter
>>>>>>>>>dog, to make a TOP NOTCH coon dog, but thats
>>just
>>>>>my
>>>>>>>>>opipion...Rex
>>>>>>>>Rex, you are right. Cat dogs are just hard to
>>find
>>>>>>and
>>>>>>>>some of the best that I have seen are mixed up
>>>>every
>>>>>>>>which way. Also, most were owned by an
>>exceptional
>>>>>>>>hunter. The latter may have been the main
>>>>>ingredient.
>>>>>>>>Maybe the reason I have so much trouble. I don't
>>>>>know
>>>>>>>>whether it takes a smarter dog to make a top
>>notch
>>>>>>>>coon dog but I think that a top notch cat dog is
>>>>>>>>harder to find. I don't think that the style of
>a
>>>>>top
>>>>>>>>cat dog would suit a lot of coon hunters.
>>However,
>>>>>>>>this type dog would catch all the coons one
>would
>>>>>>want
>>>>>>>>but not coon dog style. Julys are hard to come
>by
>>>>>>>>around here. Don't know of anyone who has
>running
>>>>>>>>dogs. Too many roads and new houses. Would like
>>to
>>>>>>>>find a half July that would look up but I got
>>>>enough
>>>>>>>>young dogs to mess with now. I also do not like
>>>the
>>>>>>>>way most Julys are wired. At my age there will
>>be
>>>>>>>>more coon hunting than cat hunting from now on.
>I
>>>>>>like
>>>>>>>>the style of my young leps so far. They will do
>>ok
>>>>>on
>>>>>>>>coon and, if they do good on cat, that is the
>>>>bonus.
>>>>>>>>Had a good cat race last night but likely went
>to
>>>>>>>>ground in rock ledge. Had my mountain curs on it
>>>>and
>>>>>>>>they drove it hard. They will not tree in a hole
>>>>>>>>unless they can see something. Got them as pups
>>>and
>>>>>>>>hoped they would be silent on cat. They are
>>silent
>>>>>on
>>>>>>>>coon but flat open on cat and can move one out.
>>>>They
>>>>>>>>can cold trail a little buy won't work a cold
>>>track
>>>>>>>>very long.
>>>>>>>>tp
>>>>>>> Tommy, I'm with you on finding good dogs; cat or
>>>>>coon
>>>>>>>dog. Some coon dogs can be found, but not many of
>>>>the
>>>>>>>kind we like. Can a trained cat dog be bought, in
>>>>our
>>>>>>>part of the world ?? I'm sure they are out west,
>>>but
>>>>>>>how about around here? Russ Barney gave me a
>>>trained
>>>>>>>cat dog, out of a female I sent out there, and
>>his
>>>>>>>Buster dog. She was a nice dog, but had no idea
>>how
>>>>>to
>>>>>>>hunt around here, roads,houses,etc.She got ran
>>>over,
>>>>>>>crossing a hiway last spring.Was after trailing a
>>>>>cat,
>>>>>>>at a good clip, and it turned up the creek toward
>>a
>>>>>>>busy HWY. Tried to catch up but didnt get there
>in
>>>>>>>time. Burying good dogs has just about done me
>in.
>>>>>>>Around here, a dog MUST handle perfect, or keep
>>>>shock
>>>>>>>collar on to p[revent this sort of thing, our
>>>>country
>>>>>>>is going fast. How well do you like the Mtn Curs?
>>>>Rex
>>>>>> Good dogs from our west sometimes don't work out
>>so
>>>>>>well here or they take some time to adjust. It
>>works
>>>>>>the other way too. The mountain curs do ok but
>they
>>>>>>don't hunt out like I would like but that is the
>>>>>>nature of most of them. They will not work a cold
>>>>>>trail very long. They can smell a bad track but
>>will
>>>>>>not work it for a long time. They are silent on
>>coon
>>>>>>but flat open on a jumped cat. Wish they were
>>silent
>>>>>>on jumped cat. They tree back off tree and wind
>>real
>>>>>>good. If something moves in tree they see it. They
>>>>are
>>>>>>fast.
>>>>>>They are brother and sister and not yet three. Got
>>>>>>some learning to do. I don't get on enough cats
>>>>around
>>>>>>here. Problems with locked gates and deer leases
>>>that
>>>>>>I used not to have. You got to run a lot of cats
>>>for
>>>>>>dogs to learn how to run them. They are smart or
>>the
>>>>>>the female is.
>>>>>>tp
>>>>> The Julys I had were silent trailers, and tight on
>>a
>>>>>jumped cat or gray fox. Poor cold trailers,but sure
>>>>>could keep them moving when jumped,the closer they
>>>got
>>>>>the less they barked.Knew by scent when a fox was
>>>>>tired and sinply hushed and caught them. Had two
>>that
>>>>>treed good. NONE that handled! Just about couldn't
>>>>>catch them unless they were bayed, treed, or run
>>>down.
>>>>>Most of these were bred out midwest, didn't bark
>>near
>>>>>enough to suit fox hunters here. There is something
>>>to
>>>>>be said, about using dogs from local breeders.
>Guess
>>>>>this brings full circle to what Perry questioned?
>>>Rex
>>>>
>>>>some interesting posts! thanks all perry
>>>Rex, have used running walkers. Most running walkers
>>>or running dogs that I have seen are just not wired
>>>right for me. Kind of like the ones you described.
>>>However, I saw some Triggs out of California that
>>>were level headed, big built and loud mouth and would
>>>tree but not hard and were silent on cold track. They
>>>were good dogs and when crossed on treeing walkers,
>>>they produced really good dogs.
>>>tp
>> Yeah, I,ve talked with several guys out there that
>>use that breeding for varmint dogs. There is also a
>>strain of "Treeing Trigg" I,ve read about out there,
>>was reg way back 1940s. The guys I hear from cross in
>>a little Treeing Walker, in the Triggs. I,d say they
>>are real similiar to the Julys I had. But you know,
>>Tommy, most Julys are about worthless now, been bred
>>to run long hrs in a pen, not for hunting. But I,m
>>sure there were some really good ones before the pens
>>came along. Why do these people breed the smarts out
>>of a good strain ?? Thats what special about these
>>Leps, real smart. And I don't think it'l make them
>>dumd to call them a hound, only if breeders breed them
>>that way, and Idon't know any that want that! Rex
>No running dogs around here. Same story as other
>places. Pavement and houses. A hunter named Sonny
>Turner in California had Triggs. The ones I saw where
>in Washington and owned by Jesse Caswell who was a
>bear hunter hired by timber companies to kill bear and
>he could do it. He got them from Turner. They were
>big and loud and really put together. They were tight
>mouthed on track and not hard tree dogs but treed. I
>think Turner got his dogs out of Kentucky. He hit pay
>dirt. However, when he tried to get more from
>Kentucky, they never were the same as that first
>bunch. This is second hand info. They bred the Triggs
>that worked down from the first bunch they got. Don't
>know if that line is still going.
>The name of a breed doesn't mean much but leopard
>hound just doesn't seem right. Time will change that.
>The way things are going, it won't be long until we
>have coon pens or we will have to walk hunt with Jack
>Russells. We sure had it better years ago than the
>young hunters do today.
>tp

You know it is a little funny. I collect old Full Cry magazines. I have read articles from the 40's 50's and 60's where they talk about hunting territory disappearing due to roads, houses etc. I had a visitor from Japan here and we visited several local farms. My visitor said farming in Japan was disappearing due to lack of ground. While I was taking them around it hit me just how many small family farms had disappeared in the 30 years I have lived in this area. Woods gone comletely. I lost 5 patches completely in just 1 summer. Fence rows gone! Ditches cleaned out and trees removed. I sure hope my grand kids get a chance to hunt but it is not looking real good. In my area a 20 acre patch of timber is good sized. Most are 5-10 acres. Houses and roads everywhere. And the city folk moving on the little parcels are the worst!! They want to rule everything around them. It is gonna get tougher for sure!

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