| Subject: Re: Salmon |
Author:
King Davy
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Date Posted: 08:10:44 02/15/02 Fri
In reply to:
Bluefin
's message, "Re: Salmon" on 07:52:27 02/15/02 Fri
>>>>>>>I'm with the Undertaker. I have fished the Salmon
>>>>>>>River and local tribs since the early 80's. I now
>>>>>fish
>>>>>>>mostly for steelhead. Our attention has swithced
>>to
>>>>>>>the western area of Ontario, Penna. and Ohio
>>tribs.
>>>>>>>The fishing is absolutely fantastic and the
>ethics
>>>>>and
>>>>>>>streamside manner of most fisherman is great. We
>>>>have
>>>>>>>a group of regulars who fish together, {
>including
>>>3
>>>>>>>N.Y. liscensed guides} and we have often discused
>>>>why
>>>>>>>the salmon river won't turn its attention towards
>>>>the
>>>>>>>Steehead program and extend the fishing
>>>>>>>opportunity!!!! Undertaker is right, we would
>have
>>>a
>>>>>>>much longer fishing season for steelhead than
>>those
>>>>>>>Pacific salmon
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Jim, thanks for joining me on my opinions and I'm
>>>>sure
>>>>>>there is a majority of other fishermen out there
>>who
>>>>>>also agree. I'm not looking for a battle, I just
>>>want
>>>>>>to correct the fishery and make it better. We
>would
>>>>>>all like the Salmon River to be a great place to
>>>>fish.
>>>>>>Me, because I only live 20 miles from it and
>really
>>>>>>enjoy the fish that are there. It sickens me to
>see
>>>>>>what has happened to it over the years, so I can
>no
>>>>>>longer sit back and do nothing. So, I have opened
>>my
>>>>>>big mouth and I won't shut it until I see the
>>issues
>>>>>>addressed and taken care of by the DEC.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I'll post up here Undertaker...since the other
>posts
>>>>>have gotten to long. You mis-understood my numbers.
>>I
>>>>>said (or ment to say) 95% of the fish SAMPLED have
>>>>>been pen raised fish. The Non fin clipped fish may
>>>>>have nose tags in them. We are out of fin clips on
>>>>>steelhead between us and the Canadian's to be able
>>to
>>>>>tell where a fish comes from and what year they
>were
>>>>>planted. The pen fish of the Oswego are the only
>pen
>>>>>fish clipped...but I'm not sure which fin...I
>>haven't
>>>>>worked on that program.
>>>>>
>>>>>But all the other pen programs have wire nose
>tagged
>>>>>steelhead...so you have to kill some fish to get
>the
>>>>>data. Not as desirable as one would like, but if we
>>>>>don't get some data the program goes away...so
>>you'll
>>>>>see those of us working for DEC in this program as
>>>>>data collectors having to kill some fish.
>>>>>
>>>>>Call it what you want but the creel Census guys
>>>>>collected a lot of Salmon river planted kings in
>the
>>>>>Niagara. Warm...water...low water...what
>ever...your
>>>>>salmon didn't come home. The boat fisherman had the
>>>>>same experience. We had a good run in the
>>Genny...and
>>>>>a decent run in the Oak...so we didn't see many
>>>>>problems...and we had a GREAT run of kings in Sandy
>>>>>Creek...where we have planted pen raised kings
>since
>>>>>99. Our run was higher then expected because we
>have
>>>a
>>>>>lot of jacks and two year olds maturing faster out
>>>>>there right now...and only staying a couple years
>in
>>>>>open water as opposed to 3 1/2 to 4 1/2 years.
>>>>>
>>>>>Anyway...nothing more to say on your lobby effort.
>>Go
>>>>>for it. One thing you have to understand...I've
>been
>>>>>going through this since the 70's with the DEC.
>They
>>>>>no longer DECIDE. They open it up to the public. If
>>>>>you get a delegation together that wants king
>salmon
>>>>>out of the program...(and you have to understand
>>that
>>>>>salmon river means out of Lake Ontario
>>>>>entirely)...because no other facility has the
>>>>>infrastructure to raise and then capture eggs and
>>>>>sperm. Then you bring it to the DEC. They open it
>up
>>>>>to the public...meaning any fishermen in lake
>>Ontario
>>>>>who has a feeling for this subject....and it will
>be
>>>>>delt with in that manner.
>>>>>
>>>>>You'll take your pitch to this forum...and make it.
>>>>>Those groups that oppose will counter (Lake
>>>Fishermen,
>>>>>River fishermen, Businesses that depend on king
>>>salmon
>>>>>etc)....Then there will be financial business, and
>>>>>environmental impact studies that will have to
>>>proceed
>>>>>any decisions. A majority vote is needed to move
>the
>>>>>program to the State level. Long process...but a
>>>>>pretty fair one. You are looking at three to five
>>>>>years to get it though all the channels ...but if
>>the
>>>>>majority of the fishermen who fish LO and the
>rivers
>>>>>...are truly your majority...then you should be
>>>>>successful.
>>>>
>>>>I know all about the nose tags and I am not sure who
>>>>decided to go that way, but I won't kill fish to get
>>>>data, sorry. I was asked last year by several guides
>>>>in Oswego to kill my steelhead and turn them over
>for
>>>>the study and was totally repulsed by the whole
>>>>incident. How can you folks kill these steelhead
>when
>>>>you know there's a shortage of fish to begin with.
>>Can
>>>>you guys please use some other means of collecting
>>>>data for the program. We would all like to help you
>>>>gather data for the various programs, but a lot of
>us
>>>>are not going to kill the fish. Come up with
>>something
>>>>other then turning in fish heads and we'll get you
>>>>loads of data.
>>>>How many signatures do you think it will take to get
>>>>our point across? How many members do you have in
>>your
>>>>organization?
>>>>It's a tough business setting out to try and remove
>a
>>>>species from an area and I don't like it anymore
>than
>>>>you do, but it is just to frustrating to watch what
>>>>goes on year after year with no improvement. It's
>>like
>>>>having drug dealers move into your neighborhood and
>>no
>>>>one wants to do anything about it. We just look the
>>>>otherway while things get worse.
>>>
>>>
>>>Undertaker...as i said in my poast they went to nose
>>>tags because every fin on a steelhead has been used
>>>recently on OTHER studies to determine where stocked
>>>and when. That means they would end up duplicating a
>>>fin clip and their data wouldn't be any good.
>>>
>>>Nobody is crazy about killing some steelhead, but
>>>that's science...you have an experiment you need to
>>>collect data the best way you can. If a group of 50
>or
>>>60 anglers turns in four or five heads they'll have
>>>some decent data to start. 20 Charter boats come in
>>>with that many steelhead in a day my friend.
>>>
>>>It's sad if you think about having to talk about
>>>taking fish out of a system to make a HUMAN problem
>go
>>>away. It's a method that would surely stop the salmon
>>>snaggers from coming...but UT...i fish the whole gig
>>>man. And I just love salmon fishing on the lake.
>>>Spring time on the Niagara bar...and your in the
>crisp
>>>blue air...rod number four rockets off...and the reel
>>>screams with a bright silver powerful 25 pound
>>>salmon...as your buddy reaches that rod...the port
>>>diver starts bucking like crazy with a 15 pound
>chrome
>>>and purple rocket....slashing the surface with his
>new
>>>found toy...(my dolfin spoon)...I hop on that
>>>rod...and as i get it out of the holder...the
>>>starboard outdown rod gets bit so hard the rod never
>>>jumps ..just burries down into the prop wash as a
>>>third nasty lion of the deep races for freedom.
>>>
>>>Just can give that up man. But I feel your pain of
>the
>>>trechery that comes to your back yard every year. So
>>>we work on changing the mind set of guy after
>>>guy...and it seems like it's happening one by
>>>one...but I get E-mails all through salmon season
>from
>>>guys who tell me they used to snag but then really
>>>tried to catch salmon and by God they DO! bite and
>>>they don't know why they ever snagged. Seems like a
>>>lot of guys...but when you add it up it's not.
>>>
>>>It shouldn't be this way...but it is...so while I'm
>>>not for getting rid of kings...and I really can't
>>>speak for all LOSA members...but I'd bet you my 6 wt
>>>sage two hander that the majority don't want to get
>>>rid of the kings...so we take another road...we are
>>>trying to teach...and preach to anybody who'll give
>us
>>>a minute of their time. I'm willing to go out fishing
>>>with anybody and show them what I know about salmon
>>>fishing in the tribs...and our LOSA members are the
>>>same way. It's never going to be fast enough...but
>>>it's better then doing nothing at all.
>>>
>>>In the end I'll be damed if I'll let the behavior of
>a
>>>bunch of slugs take away a great game fish. If you
>>>ever feel the way we do...come join us...we'd love to
>>>have ya. I love your passion....I just don't think
>>>dumping the kings without a proven replacement...will
>>>ever be bought into by the general fishing
>>>public...and businesses.
>>>
>>>Tight lines buddy.
>>
>>Not to get side tracked, but has anyone ever tried a
>>hole punch on a dorsal fin or tail for marking
>>purposes. Seems like a pretty simple solution to fin
>>clipping or nose tags. Don't know if it would work,
>>but it's just an idea to consider. If your worried
>>about the hole closing up then use a small stainless
>>steel grommet.
>
>Probably the simpelist solution to marking is
>"spaghetti" tags. They have used them in saltwater
>fish for years. Much data on striped bass has been
>collected with these tags. They are small and
>unobtrusive to the fish and can be clipped off and
>sent in with length, girth and date caught without
>killing the fish. Simply put, just a different colored
>tag for each area would go a long way to telling which
>fish are returning and from where. If they are going
>to take the time to clip fins or put wire tags in the
>nose of a fish, they would certainly have the time to
>put a spaghetti tag in a fish. How is anyone going to
>know if a fish has a wire in its nose? At least these
>other tags are visible. Just my opinion/2 cents.
Hi guys both good questions...and maybe solutions. I think I've heard of hole punching before. Anyway...I know our LOSA group will be meeting with the Altmar guys next month...so I'll bring this up to them...unless you guys fire off a note to them before. What ever response I get....I'll get back in here and post it.
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