| Subject: Re: Lake Ontario King Salmon |
Author:
King Davy
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Date Posted: 09:29:54 02/11/02 Mon
In reply to:
Undertaker
's message, "Re: Lake Ontario King Salmon" on 05:59:43 02/11/02 Mon
>>>>Great post man. I have to agree that most people
>>don't
>>>>have a clue how to fish for kings. That includes
>most
>>>>of the guides that I've seen. Why anybody would go
>>out
>>>>and fish for a 30lb fish that has stuffed itself on
>>>>baitfish it's entire life, and then tie on a size 12
>>>>estaz fly is beyond me. Don't get me wrong, I have
>>>>seen a few fish bite them, but your wasting your
>time
>>>>with those trash flies if it is true biters your
>>>>looking for. I fished Oak Orchard this fall in mid
>>>>November(targeting browns). There were probably 30
>or
>>>>so spawned out kings in most of the holes. You
>should
>>>>have seen them chasing down wooly buggers and
>>>>streamers and BITING them. I'm not talking about the
>>>>"salmon river DSR,line'em up, he's hooked right in
>>the
>>>>outside corner" type of bites either. I was
>stripping
>>>>the fly slowly with no weight about 3 inches below
>>the
>>>>surface(water was LOW and clear) and watched them
>all
>>>>chase it 3 to 8 feet before opening up and grabbing
>>>>it. These fish were nasty too, all they had left to
>>do
>>>>was die. After hooking a few of them I started
>>letting
>>>>them spit the fly because I didn't want to have to
>>>>deal with taking them off.Probably had 30 moldy
>kings
>>>>and several moldy cohos bite that week(caught lots
>of
>>>>fresh coho at burt dam).With all those bites
>>stripping
>>>>the fly, only one took it on a dead drift. My
>>>>conclusion is that they prefer something swimming
>>like
>>>>the baitfish that grew them that big, rather than
>>>>something drifted. Although I have had lots of luck
>>>>drifting skein too, but not so much luck with the
>>>>artificial egg patterns. I think that has something
>>to
>>>>do with scent. As for the salmon river and the
>leader
>>>>laws, it doesn't really matter too me. After going
>>>>there several years I have found it to be the most
>>>>over rated river in the world. There are just too
>>many
>>>>lead chuckers there to get any fish to bite. They
>can
>>>>make all the laws they want, but the worst thing
>>going
>>>>on in that river is chuck N duck. Without a doubt
>the
>>>>most effective snagging tool ever invented, because
>>>>the goofs actually think they are fishing. I guess
>>>>it's all ok though, there going to die anyway.
>>>I totally disagree with the comments above. I have
>>>fished the salmon river for kings for 22 years and
>>>have had very few kings hit a fly, but the cohos hit
>>>very well on the fly.So, please don't make it sound
>>>like its the fishermen and not the fish! I'll even go
>>>so far as to bet anyone here that they can't
>>>consistantly get kings to take a fly in two days on
>>>the salmon river. Let's say from route 2A to Altmar.
>>>On a weekend with lots of people around. I'll video
>>>tape the two days and we'll see who is fishing and
>who
>>>is snagging. I've been around enough guys who tell me
>>>they get them to hit and when I see them fishing, I
>>>see alot of line ripping and fast, high rod sticking.
>>>That's not a fish hitting, that's pooning! I want to
>>>see these kings chase down a fly and smash it. So,
>put
>>>your guides' licenses where your mouths are and let's
>>>see you work your magic. If I video tape six kings
>>>moving at least 3 feet to attack a fly, no dead
>>>drifting crap, I'll shut-up about the kings having to
>>>go. Otherwise, you guides back us here and help get
>>>rid of them.
>>>
>>>Any interested parties, leave your email address here
>>>and I'll contact you to set things up for this fall.
>>
>>
>>Undertaker - I am also not a stream guide. I have
>>guided for 20 years on the lake, but just stream fish
>>for myself. I've had many many days up in the fly
>>stretch where I've had 15 to 20 fish days catching
>>kings. I don't use running line...very little weight
>>if at all...depending on water conditions. I don't use
>>tiny flies for kings...size 12 is the smallest I'll
>>go...again depending on water conditions. I've had
>>fish chase flies all over the place to eat them, and
>>I've caught them drifting a nymph in a natural
>>fashion...plus under a float off the fly rod...fishing
>>vertical. The fish bites the fly...pulls the float
>>down...set the hook fish on...no different then any
>>other fish.
>>
>>I would agree with you that if guys are stepping all
>>over these fish...it is nearly impossible to expect
>>them to bite. They are fish...and any fish when it
>>gets spooked gets tight lipped. But that is an angling
>>problem. I can't believe how horrible the avg.
>>fishermen is these days not just on the salmon river
>>but all rivers I fish. A very large contingent of
>>people I observe got their mechanics, and their
>>strategy all fouled up. In many cases if you can
>>clearly see the fish...it can clearly SEE you. I see
>>guys fishing with blaze orange hunting coats on white
>>hats...I mean real stupid stuff.
>>
>>The chuck and duck techniques does more to put fish
>>down then any other method out there. Hell even a
>>J-Plugger can land the bait quietly. But the pretend
>>fly guys with their running line and slinky's plop
>>that bait in to clear water...and the fish hear every
>>thing. Plus these rigs don't give you the sensitive
>>feel required to truly detect a strike. King salmon
>>are a VERY moody fish. They will either SLAM a
>>bait...or pick..pick..pick at it like a perch would.
>>Either way, you need to be able to feel the take.
>>Leaders anchored by heavey weights deaden the feel at
>>the business end.
>>I respect your opinions...but there is no sense on
>>getting into a debate on catching kings on a fly cause
>>I've caught too many to remember. It's like saying on
>>a cloudless day...the sun doesn't shine. Not
>>debateable. I'd be glad to talk to you about fishing
>>for them...and if we are ever in the same neck of the
>>woods fish with you...
>>
>>You are not going to get rid of the king salmon in
>>this river system...until the state can come up with a
>>fish to take it's place. The only one that would have
>>a chance is the Atlantic salmon....and after 20 years
>>of trying to find a strain that would take to the
>>lake...and it's rivers...we've failed misserably. If
>>you'd like to be more successful in catching king
>>salmon I'd suggest putting your energy into working on
>>your technique and strategy to fish for them. Nobody
>>likes crowds...so I assume you are willing to walk
>>back into places that are not as crowded etc.
>>
>>Anyway...I don't doubt many people would like to see
>>kings disappear, but the states open lake program
>>revolves around the king salmon...and if you fish for
>>them on the lake you should have a whole different
>>attitude about them. Cause they are marvelous. The
>>whole program goes down the shute if the lake loses
>>it's kings. The impact to the WHOLE lake is much more
>>serious then the impact to one river system.
>>
>>I just don't think your idea is realistic because it's
>>much more far reaching then the salmon river. Good
>>discussion though. Take the time to write me a note
>>and let's talk about how you fish for kings and we'll
>>exchange ideas and tactics....you give them a try and
>>see if you don't see a difference. Good luck to you.
>
>
>King Davy, please look at what is going on to the west
>of us. OH and PA have cut back their salmon program
>and they're filling their rivers with steelhead. They
>now have the best fishing area around. Fishermen are
>leaving here to go there. Why, you might ask? Because
>steelhead are a biting fish and even with pressure
>will still bite. When you put a guy into an area with
>large salmon and no way for him to get those fish to
>bite he is going to snag them. I've seen guys throw
>their ethics to the wind when those big salmon are in
>shallow water right next to them. The pacific salmon
>is a poor sportfish for this area. OH and PA are
>finding out that the fishermen are much happier with
>steelhead and double digit fish days are not uncommon
>out there. They don't even miss the pacific salmon!
>So, why do you folks want to keep the pacific salmon?
>It's not rocket science, anyone can see that the
>problem is with the fish and not the fishermen. I
>think you need to look beyond what you want for
>yourself and what would be good for the rivers in this
>area.
>
>I would be glad to discuss tactics with you but that's
>not going to solve the problem of the Salmon River. If
>the kings are taken away then alot of your snaggers
>and rippers will also stay away.
Undertaker: Kings were taken out of the lake Erie mix for one reason only . They didn't survive well in shallow warm lake Erie. Kings don't tolerate a shallow warm body of water. It had nothing to do with the snagging problems. Further more...the WALLEYE is the king of fish in lake Erie...the steelhead program was ramped up to keep the action/economy going during the fall and winter months while the walleye program was dorment.
Lake Erie generates all of it's main tourism dollars from the Walleye fishery. That's not to say that the steelie program in PA and Ohio is not signbificant, but walleyes were a fish that replenished themselves...over time, and are THE most sought after game fish in that area.
Not trying to take anything away from your post, but you don't seem to understand the impact of kings in the open water fishery of Lake Ontario....and now the Walleye fishery in Lake Erie. With that I would assume you don't participate in any of the open water fisheries. If that's so...that would explain your posts where you don't recognize those fisheries. That's OK, but you have to realize that the stream fishing is only a part of the whole picture,. And that eliminating any game fish from the program would have to be something the WHOLE fishery agrees to. Couple that with what appears to be a very successful program to pen rear kings and steelies, (a huge number of kings)...so they imprint on their home rivers suggests that the Lake Fishery is WAY ahead of the stream guys in working on programs to enhance the King fishing in lake Ontario. Of course the pen programs are a result of egg and sperm collecting at ALTMAR...meaning the salmon river plays a very important role.
Finally...I have to Knock on one of your statements....I think if you really believe this...you are way missing the point of the problem. So I respectively disagree with your quote that the "Fishermen are not the problem....The fish are". Are you serious?????? All the fish do is swim in to spawn. All the FISHERMEN do is BREAK THE FREAKIN' LAWS all day long. A human being has control over their actions. Any guy who is raping this fishery chooses to. Knowing that how can you say it's the kings who are creating the problem. If people would LEARN how to fish for these fish...and not believe they are OWED some meat just because they bought a license then this would work. If you hunt deer...or ducks...just because you bought a stamp or a tag...you think you are entitled to take game any way you want..legal or not?
How can human beings point a finger at a FISH...and say it is the problem? Nobody is making people SNAG...LINE...GIG...HOOP...LASSO fish. They choose to break the law...you think if you had steelies coming into the salmon river in sept. that people would stop lifting them. They lift them all winter for gods sake...
It's back to education...and the sportsman taking care of the resource and the program. Those that don't know how to fish, learn! Instead of raping the fish. And everybody ought to get with the fact that THIS is FISHING...and NOT everytime you are on a river or stream are you there WHEN the fish are Active. Deal with it people. Like I said...and I'm not just a fly fisherman, I float fish also....but I see so many POOR fishermen every where I go. It seems like people just buy some gear and think that's it. All I have to do is toss in my line...when that doesn't work...There are many illegal, snagging techniques to use where they think they have a better chance.
OK, been on soap box way to long...sorry for that. Anyway Undertaker...you are entitled to your opinion and thoughts...I truly believe you care about this stuff...and that's good...but I truly don't think you understand the whole picture.
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