Show your support by donating any amount. (Note: We are still technically a for-profit company, so your
contribution is not tax-deductible.)
PayPal Acct: 
Feedback: 
Donate to VoyForums (PayPal):
| [ Login ] [ Contact Forum Admin ] [ Main index ] [ Post a new message ] [ Search | Check update time | Archives: 1, [2], 3 ] |
| Subject: Re: hi | |
Author: Ajith (come on) | [ Next Thread |
Previous Thread |
Next Message |
Previous Message
] Date Posted: 01:34:06 12/01/15 Tue In reply to: sj 's message, "Re: hi" on 02:16:15 10/24/15 Sat We can say a true tamilian came from this “P” in origin. Many tamilian taught they come from the high castes but actually they are not. Vishal, when you mention about many high castes came to kuching to work.I don’t think so my fren. If true they are upper caste,why they works as a labour ,illiterate some more ?Second thing is when British gives them an option whether they want to go back to India or not why some refused to go back? If they come from the high caste after saves a lot of money ,in Sarawak.Where is this place anyway? Yup, in Malaysia, then why they did not return home to India? The origin of tamilian,telugu and malayalem who immigrants during those time ,workings as a labour and illiterate .I dont’ think there are upper my fren. If they’re doctor ,lawyer or engineer at that that time, teachers maybe then I will believe they’re are upper caste during those days. I’m Viswakarma Brahmin,one of the scholar in India. I can prove to you that anything about immigrants.Majority are sudras. Anyone who go outside India those days, will be outcasts my fren. Eventhough,I’m considers Brahmin, but I reject all this caste system. All this does not makes any sense to me. Of course my father will not be happy when I say about this statement. I think I need to tell you who is this “P”. I’m pity to see the dalit society majority are “p” who don’t know who they are actually? Vishal about big temple or small especially tamilians who immigrants,is a sad thing to know that my fren.Let me know tell you who is this “p”.Those days during the chola time ,they’re among the respectable tamilians.This material I got it from Indian library. P is the name of a caste in Tamilnadu, India. The people of this caste were treated as Untouchables from 13th Century A.D. until mid 20th Century A.D. in India. In English the word was first recorded in 1613 and means an Outcaste, Untouchable, social outcast and was derived from the caste name P because the people of the caste were treated very low when British came and ruled India. The Tamil word P means a drummer. The following article discusses the roots of P caste and how they became Untouchables and the shocking truth about the origins of Untouchability in India. P were Buddhists. They may be the descendants of Paradas or Mauryas who were Buddhists and came to South India after the collapse of Buddhism and raise of Brahmanism in North India. Owing to their Buddhist allegiance and refusal to adopt Brahmanism they were separately distinguished and later ex-communicated with the raise of Brahmanism. In ancient India Dravidians did not have caste or Varna but there were many tribes and the people were identified by the individual tribal names. Tamil was the major language throughout India and most civilized Indian (at that time Dravidians) spoke Tamil (Damita). The old Tamil Scripture was completely different than the current Tamil Scripts. (Note: Costanzo Giuseppe Beschi (1680-1746), later called as Veera-ma-munivar, an Italian Jesuit missionary learned Tamil and formed the current Tamil letters to make it easier to write). The original Vedas might have been writen in Tamil or similar Dravidian language. The original Vedas did not specify about caste. In Ancient Tamil Literature Aryans were called as Mlecchas – meaning uncivilized and the ones that did not learn the Tamil Language well. The arrival of Greeks and other Central Asian settlers to India brought the concept of slaves and class division to India. Thus the Aryans brought /made the 3 class system in line with Plato’s ideas of an egalitarian society. Thus before Ashoka converted to Buddhism there were only 3 classes (Varnas – Kings, Priests and Merchants) among the Aryans. After Ashoka converted to Buddhism, Buddhism was dominant in most / major parts of India for about 300 years under the Mauryan Empire. Hence the followers of the 3-class system lost their relevance and were becoming out of place in dominantly Buddhist society. This prompted them to plan an attack on Buddhism and took extreme measures. One of the Commanders of the Buddhist Mauryan Emperor Brihadratha murdered him and took measures to prevent Buddhism from coming back. As it is common to form a new constitution, adopt a new language with the formation of a new nation (especially when the new nation is formed out of hatred for an existing nation), a new language was formed which was classical Sanskrit. A new constituition evolved in the form of Smrithis. The new language called as Sanskrit was used to write the Upanishads, Sastras and Smrithis and to rewrite MahaBaratha and Ramayana to suite the needs of the new formed order that was called Brahamanism. Brahamanism, Sanskrit and the new Constitution – that was later called the Manu Smrithi. The people that did not adopt Brahamanism were termed as Vrathyas (Meaning Ignoble) and were made gradually as UNTOUCHABLES over a span of several centuries as and when opportunities arouse to subdue the so-called Vrathyas. The Kings, Priest and Merchants that adopted Brahamanism were absorbed as Ksatryas, Brahamins and Vaysyas. The commoners that lived in those Kingdoms that adopted Brahamanism were termed as Sudras and were used as workers of various types. The Kings that opposed Brahamanism and refused to accept the class system and refused to accept Brahamins as their advisors were ex-communicated and when these kingdoms fell from power the people in those Kingdoms that adopted Brahamanism were absorbed as Sudras and the people that still opposed Brahamanism were made as UNTOUCHABLES. In order to create a new order (Like a new Constitution for a new Country) many Brahmins (followers of Lord Brahma and were the principal revolutionary) wrote several rules and regulations and tried to use the ancient Vedas as a ground for their base work. But this resulted in so many contradicting theories about the Vedas, origin of Vedas, Origin of Gods, and lead to numerous new stories in the name of Smritis, Puranas, Upanishads, and Bhagawat Gita. They also re-wrote Baratha (added / modified Baratha) to make it Mahabharata, added/modified Ramayana to support their new-formed religion. (Now-a-days we see movies dubbed from other languages or countries edited / modified according to the local culture and philosophy. This happened with Baratha and Ramayana. In order to get support for Brahmanism, the Brahmin writers added new stories to the epics to suite their Brahmanism Philosophy). As so many new laws (aiding and contradictory) were written by numbers authors in the name of Smritis, there was confusion on what to adopt and what not to. The set of rules written by Sumati Bharagava after 185 B.C. in the name of ‘Manu Smriti’ was adopted as the constitution for Brahmanism as this gave lot of advantage and upper hand to the Brahmins and Kings that adopted Brahmanism. (According to Manu’s law: When there was conflict and contradiction between the rules of different Smriti then only the Manu Smriti must be used.) The out come of these extreme measures were the creation of two more new classes – the Sudras and Untouchables. As the Gutpa dynasty adopted Brahmanism and expanded in the North, the Pallava Empire adopted Brahmanism and expanded in the South, the new phenomenon – the 4 + 1 Varna system spread through out India. North India and northern part of South India was directly under Mauryan Buddhist Empire for about 300 years. Hence the Kingdom that sprang with the collapse of the Mauryan Empire awaiting vengeance on the Buddhists, adopted Brahmanism Though the Aryans had only 3 Varnas, one may wonder, how it became a 4 Varna + 1 Untouchable system. As the new system spread, obviously one has to find place to fit the new comers. The Brahmins did not want to give up there position. Obviously the Kings will not take a lower position. So Kings and his warrior class were absorbed as Kshatryas at the same time they were not treated low in status to the Brahmins as long as the King was powerful (In those circumstances the Brahmins were servile to the Kings). But when a King was weak they took full advantage of it and tried to enforce supremacy of the Brahmins over Kshatryas (Like in a Parliamentary Democracy if the Prime minister did not have majority then he has to dance to the tunes of all MPs and supporting parties; but the MPs act servile when the Prime minister has more than absolute majority). The rich Merchants were absorbed as Vysas but then all other working classes were made Sudras. The Kings that did not support Brahmanism were branded as degraded Kings (Vratya Kshatriyas meaning degraded Kshatriyas). These so called Vratya Kshatriyas were great devotees and followers of Lord Shiva (Shivism), Lord Vishnu (Vishnavism), Lord Buddha (Buddhism), Lord Mahavira (Jainism) but they did not adopt Brahmanism. (The criteria for a noble Kshatriya is to take the sacred Brahmanical rituals/codes and to heed to the Brahmanans, to perform sacrifices from time to time and giving rich gifts to the Brahamin priests at these sacrifices and to follow the laws of Manu – It does not matter whether a King is a great devotee of God Shiva, God Vishnu or any of the other Gods but should basically heed to the Brahmanans. This is also emphasised by the Manu law – Do not follow even God in their good deeds, if they are contrary to the rules of Shurti, Smriti and Sadachar! ). As long as the Kings that did not support Brahmanism were in power the supporters of Brahmanism could not do any thing about them. Once these Kings were defeated by a King that supported Brahmanism, the King and his clan that lost power that did not support Brahmanism, were ex-communicated according to Manu’s law (Rationalism as a canon of interpreting the Vedas and Smritis is absolutely condemned. It is regarded to be as wicked as atheism and the punishment provided for it is ex-communication). So where did Untouchables come from? These ex-communicated communities, as they were deprived of any opportunity within cities and were prevented from bearing arms, gradually became poor and then were made Untouchables. They were from 2 different groups. 1. The existing strong supporters of Buddhism (Buddhists and Buddhist supporters within Mauryans were the first target) who were not ready to accept Brahmanism. The case of Paraiah should be coming under this category. 2. The King, his solders and their kinsmen that lost in Battle and those workers that were very loyal to the lost King and not ready to accept / embrace Brahmanism. The case of Mauryas, Nandas, Mallas, Chalukyas come under this category. It should be noted that this change did not happen over night but it happened over a period of 300 to 500 years, gradually with the Brahmins tightening the noose at every available opportunity. Initially robbed them of their wealth and status, Then sent them out of towns and cities and excommunicated them, Then prevented them from getting jobs other than as menial labourers, Then prevented them from having education, Then prevented them from accessing public places and Then made them as untouchables. But the Brahmins did not do it by themselves. They did it with the help of the Kings that won the battle (as this helped the winning King also, as his opponents were completely robbed of all their possessions and hence no change of comeback and be a threat) and with the help of others who embraced Brahmanism (Though others from the lost Kingdom that started to support Brahmanism after their previous King lost in battle, were included as Sudras, they did not have to go through the difficulties of the ex-communicated people and had a place in the Brahmin society and were able to earn a living and had the newly forming Untouchables to look down upon) The British government also helped in other ways to aggravate the problems of the ex-communicated communities and to the advantage of the Brahmins by educating only the Brahmins, preventing ex-communicated community members from taking any position in the British government, passing law declaring all Indians except Muslims, Christians, and Buddhists of that time as Hindus, passing law declaring all Indians as Sudras except Muslims, Christians, Brahmins and Buddhists of that time, implementing Manu’s rules in the name of Hindu laws there by suppressing other until the Brahmins revolted against British asking for freedom. The Tamil Dictionary of 9th Century A.D, Divagaram, does not have a classification as Paraiah (P). The stone inscription of the later part of later Cholas have mention two categories of workers in the name of P namely Oolu Parayar (Farming Parayar) and Nesavu Parayar (Cloth making Parayar). At that time they had separate settlements by the name of Parai Cheyri, they had separate cremation centers, separate weaving centers. Paryars at that time helped to perform (Nanda veelaku) lighting in certain Temples. They paid taxes. They were in the army of Cholas and worked in the Chola Government administrative offices. Also it should be noted that several of them converted to Saivism following Nandanar and several of them converted to Vishnavism following Thirupaanallwaar. At this time Pariars were citizens of Chola Empire, they owned lands, signed documents, they had right to property. The Pariahs at that time WERE NOT CONSIDERED AS UNTOUCHABLES. (It should also be noted that in ancient Tamil Kingdoms and until 14 century AD, only Pullayar who burnt dead bodies were avoided by public and were treated as Untouchables owing to the nature of their job and not due to any other means. The Untouchability of the Pullayar was much different than the Untouchability practiced by Brahmanism. Pullayar went to public places but blew a horn before they came to public places so that public can avoid contact with them. Also women were prevented from giving food to Pullayars – These were procedures for Biohazard prevention rather than suppression unlike the Untouchability practiced with Brahmanism.) By the end of later Cholas period some Paraiyan’s were treated low but still were not untouchables. At this time the later Cholas supported Brahmins and partially adopted Brahmanism. There was no mention of Clash between the Parayars and any others until the downfall of Tamil Kings. By the end of 14th century with the downfall of the Pandyas – last of the Tamil Kings to loose power, the descendants of Tamil Kings – the Mallas were renamed as Pallas by Nayak Kings and were ex-communicated. (It should be noted that the Nayaks were great supporters of Brahmins and Brahmanism). As the Mallas were killed, driven out of their Kingdom and were robbed of their possessions, many left for Kerala, Ceylon, Malaysia and their links in the North were cut-off. The remaining Mallas humiliated as Pallas were forced as agricultural labourers in their ancestors land under the new landlords. The Nayaks at this time instigated all others to claim the title and ownership of the Mallas. With this there were numerous fights over claim of title between the Malla turned Pallas and Parayars. Though the Parayars lived in harmony with the Mallas during Chola and Pandya rule and occupied government jobs, owned lands, served the army, they rebelled against the Malla turned Pallas with the motivation from the Nayaks which lead the Mallas / Pallas to distrust the Parayas until today. As the Nayaks were great supporters of Brahmanism, the Pallas and Parayas were ex-communicated and gradually made Untouchables. As indicated earlier, anyone that did not support Brahmanism were ex-communicated and later made untouchables. The Mallas did not adopt Brahmanism and were branded by Manu as degraded Kshatriyas. So once they lost power they were ex-communicated. But then why the Paraiyars were ex-communicated? The answer to this is the Paraiyars were Buddhists. Pann Chery –> Pannar->later called themselves as Pandaya Vellalas in cities, in villages they were called themselves as Pannar or Pann Mestri. They do stritching as their Job. They have marriage with Pariyars. Seynai Kudaiaar mostly do Weaving job. In Middle ages Pull Porriki Parayar had their living by collecting grass for Horses. They were dependent on Horse solders (cavalry). Later they called themselves as Kuddirai Sevakar (Care taker of Horse), then to Seynai Kudaiaar, and then to Seynai Talaaivar. The Pariyar who were in Chola army also called themselves as Seynai Talaaivar. Later the Seynai Talaaivar called themselves as Chettiyar, Muddaliyar, Pillai, Muppan – (From Castes and Tribes of South India Vol VI Page 360 – E. Thurston) Saaliyar came from Paraiyars. KaaiKollar and Sengunthar were from Paraiyars during Vijayanagar rule. Nessavu Paraiyar in Middle ages. Kolliya Paraiyar do weaving job. Some of the Nessavu Paraiyar were used for Temple related work during Vijayanagar reign. They later called themselves as KaaiKollar. Kolliya Paraiyar, Sengunthar and KaaiKollar call themselves as the descendants of Veerabaku – one of the Commanders of Lord Muruga (Karthkeya / Subramaniyan) Semman, Seyniyar, Sengaar, Ponnaari Vellalar converted themselves from Pariayar during Vijayanagar reign. Kammalar came from Kolliya Paraiyar. As Otanguthar, a Tamil poet, was a Kolliya Paraiyar and had influence with Cholan Kulothungan. So through the influence of Otanguthar, they got rights to wear sacred thread of Brahmanism and later called themselves as Kammalar. Weavers from Northern districts of Tamilnadu were called as Sengunthar and from Southern, districts were called as Kaikollar. The so-called Thevaradiyar that were employed in Temples were from these weaver classes. Later they called themselves as Pillai and Muddai. So Semman, Seniyar, Kaikollar, Sengundar, Senai Kudaiyan, Senai Talaivar, Present day Vellalar, Pillai, Muddali and many other castes branched off from Pariyars during and after the Vijayanagar rule. By the census of 1891 there were 348 different divisions of Paraiyars. Some of the important / majority divisions of the Paraiyars out of the 348 divisions are: 1. Valluva Paraiyar 2. Dada Paraiyar 3. Danda Paraiyar 4. Tavalai Kaali Paraiyar 5. Kuudi Paraiyar 6. Teeya Paraiyar 7. Murasu Paraiyar 8. Ambu Paraiyar 9. Vaduga Paraiyar 10. Aliya Paraiyar 11. Vallai Paraiyar 12. Vetiyaan Paraiyar 13. Kooliya Paraiyar 14. Perum Paraiyar 15. Agaali Paraiyar 16. Tamil Paraiyar 17. Pullai Paraiyar Did the Paraiayas become Untouchables because they ate beef? No. There were so many tribes and ancestors of the many current upper castes that ate Beef. But they did not become Untouchables. Arya Brahmins also ate Beef. Originally Mallars (Mallas, Mala, Mallicos) did not eat Beef because agriculture was their profession during piece time and were warriors during wartime. As most of the ancient and South Indian Kingdoms until 14th Century A.D. were that of Mallas, Beef eating was not a practice among the citizens of those Kingdom. The Mallas used Ox for ploughing fields and Cow to get Milk and considered the OX and Cow as extension of their family. Hence did not eat it. But they ate meat like Goat and Chicken. Buddhism prohibited killing any animal. But at the same time did not prevent eating animal that was dead. Hence Buddhists that wanted to eat meat, ate meat after an animal died. So Paraiyas originally being Buddhists did not mind eating dead cow hence ate Beef. But with the raise of Brahmanism, when the non-supporters of Brahmanism were excommunicated, the Paraiyas were also ex-communicated. As their opportunity for work was gone with ex-communication, they had to depend more on dead animals rather than other agricultural products. So when a cow died the Paraiyas were willing to take it to eat it. The dead cow was of no use to the Hindu (coined by British to support Brahmanism) and disposing it became very easy for the Hindus when the Paraiyas took it away. So even though when the Pariayas were ex-communicated and barred from other social interaction with the Hindus, the Hindus let the Parayas know about dead cows in villages to dispose them and the Parayas were happy to take it to eat it. Over a period of several generations the truth was forgotten and the stigma of eating and carring a dead cow was considered as a cause for Untouchability. (Note the Mallas who were branded as Pallas and were made Untouchables do not eat beef but still they were ex-communicated and treated as untouchables. Also there are several other castes that eat beef but are not treated as Untouchables). So with raise in Brahmanism, the criteria for becoming an Untouchable was influential class / Khastriyas that did not support Brahmanism. This may rise the question then why there are many castes, whose ancestors that did not support or adopt Brahmanism did not become untouchables. Though the members of such castes nowadays live in towns and cities at the time of the raise in Brahmanism, the ancestors of these castes were tribes that lived outside ancient cites – especially mountains and forests and hence the supporters of Brahmanism did not bother about these tribes at that time. The British law in 1784 that defined Hindus and Sudras excluded these tribes from the Hindu Corridor. But as the members of these tribes were absorbed into towns and cities, they were gradually merged as Hindus and Sudras. Where the Paraiyas tribes or Eiyners or AdiDravidas? Had they lived before the Dravidians came to Tamilnadu then the Tamil Sangum Songs would have mentioned about them. They did not. So they could not have come before Dravidians. So they are not Adi Dravadas (Before Dravidians). Had they been tribes or Eiyners then they could not have been skilled in so many different work divisions in a short period of time. When they came to Tamilnadu, they should have come form a well-established society with skilled workers. This is the reason the Eiyners respected them and lived with harmony. This should have been the reason the Cholas took them in their army, as citizens as Farmers and Weavers etc. Note in ancient Tamil Kingdoms and during later Chola and Pandya Empire, Farmers were the first citizens and the well to do as mentioned in Kural and many ancient Tamil work. The Mallas were the Farmers and Warriors and their leader was the King. The Paraiyahs were also given the privilege of working as Farmers, which means they were well respected. This was possible only if the Paraiyas already had the skills of farming at that time. They could have got these skills only if they had come from an already established society. Also note the numerous Vellala castes came from Paraiyas indicating the diversified work skills they had. Note: Farmers became poor and were treated as bonded labourers only with the fall of Chola and Pandian Empire, during Naiyak and Marata rule. How did they get the name Paraiya / Paraiah? They should have come from a dynasty named or sounds similar to Paraiya or they could have played the drums on a daily basis as a certain Buddhists ritual and got the name Paraiyan. I have no intention to shame anybody but to tell the truth about the caste sytem in India,it is really paganisme way of thinking. We are living in a 21st century, modern world .Come out from all of this ,its like like an generational curse. This is only for historical educational purpose only. Many tamil tribe come from “p” caste. So, please live harmony wherever you are.Indian should help an Indian ,not to judge them.Vishal ,maybe I will read the bible from now on. Thank you brother for telling about Jesus Christ.Yes, I want to know more about Him. [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ] |
|
Forum timezone: GMT-8 VF Version: 3.00b, ConfDB: Before posting please read our privacy policy. VoyForums(tm) is a Free Service from Voyager Info-Systems. Copyright © 1998-2019 Voyager Info-Systems. All Rights Reserved. |