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Subject: Re: The Christopher Columbus thread Author: exa [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ] Date Posted: 19:22:08 05/24/04 Mon In reply to: WallacetheBruce and Exa 's message, "The Christopher Columbus thread" on 15:04:48 05/23/04 Sun About the "templar cross" on the sails, 2nd paragraph in the reply: >I think the three ships that Columbus sailed to the new world where >ships owned by the Portuguese Knights of Christ...hence the croix pattee >crosses on the sails. > >Since the Templars were reformed in Portugal as Knights of Christ, >Columbus really did sail to the new world under a Templar cross in a >sense. What I'm not sure of is if the ritual/Rule remained the same >after the renaming of the Templars as Knights of Christ. If it did >remain the same then the issue becomes a little more interesting. Highly unlikely. The Templars were formed as a military religious order with the purpose of aiding the Crusaders mission in the Holy Land, and returning/maintaining possession of same to Christianity. That mission was a lost cause (from a military standpoint) even before the Order was officially dissolved, and it's not likely that Columbus (who had another mission entirely, several hundred years after the primary Crusades), considered himself a "Templar." The fact that his ships used a cross patee in and of itself does not constitute proof of Templar influence over Columbus' mission, especially since the cross was a very common heraldic charge. http://groups.google.com/groups?q=columbus+templar&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=1998070701334600.VAA00296%40ladder03.news.aol.com&rnum=2 "it's not likely that Columbus (who had another mission entirely) considered himself a "Templar." The Pendulum quote has a go at fusing the two, with him sailing to re-make the temple, forget the sea-route entirely. In the chapter they are reading out the substance of manuscripts they've been sent. They seem more likely to accept authors that give eccentric theses and who are also willing to pay for publication (a gold route was something CC was after, right? : ) [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

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[> [> Subject: Re: The Christopher Columbus thread Author: StClair [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 09:11:58 05/25/04 Tue The cross on the flag is not enough evidence to prove that he was a Templar or of Templar origin. But his family and loyalties are. Columbus was distantly related to De Moley. The belief is that the Templars that fled to Scotland remained inland and the Templar influx became ritualised as Freemasonry. The Templars that fled to portugal became masters of the sea and were named "The Knights of Christ". This name is not terribly different from their old name: "The Poor Fellow Soldiers of Christ (and the Temple of Solomon)" The Templars were already fantastic mariners. Their escape with europes dynastic treasures from La Rochelle harbour in a fleet of twelve ships aids this conclusion. He may also have known about the Scottish settlement of america in the 1390s. This was a mission, captained by Prince Henry StClair of which much is written. The evidence is persuasive and compelling to say the least. Especially for a scot. He was chasing gold that he knew was there. He spent time in british waters and had many personal theories of an unknown land to the west. He also had notions (indeed he mapped them) of an unknown southern continent. He had this information from other seagoers. Columbus was very interested in the theories and achievements of other nations. He also utilysed cartographic, cosmographic and astronomic sciences from all ages. Gardez Bien [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> Subject: Re: The Christopher Columbus thread Author: exa [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 00:08:09 06/09/04 Wed I found a complete etext of Pendulum and searched for more Columbus references. There is one more, in chapter 67: If I could have invented a Templar castle, it would have been Tomar. You reach it by ascending a fortified road that flanks the outer bastions, which have cruciform slits, and you breathe Crusader air from the first moment. The Knights of Christ prospered for centuries in that place. Tradition has it that both Henry the Navigator and Christopher Columbus belonged to that order, and in fact it devoted itself to the conquest of the seas — making the fortune of Portugal. The knights' long and happy existence there had caused the castle to be rebuilt and extended through the centuries, so to its medieval part were joined Renaissance and Baroque wings. I was moved as I entered the church of the Templars, which had an octagonal rotunda reproducing that of the Holy Sepulcher, and I was surprised to see that the Templars' crosses had different forms, depending on their location. It was a problem I had encountered before, when I went through the confused iconography on the subject. Whereas the cross of the Knights of Malta had remained more or less the same, the Templar cross had been influenced by periods and local traditions. That's why Templar-hunters, finding any kind of cross in a place, immediately think they've discovered a trace of the knights. --- "I say they located the silver mines in the New World, caused eruptions of silver there, and then, controlling the Gulf Stream, shifted that precious metal to the Portuguese coast. Tomar was the distribution center; the Foret d’Orient, the chief storehouse. This was the origin of their wealth. But this was peanuts. They realized that to exploit their secret fully they would have to wait for a technological advance that would take at least six hundred years." [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: The Christopher Columbus thread Author: rosy [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 17:23:50 06/09/04 Wed Hope you don't mind me jumping in here. Here is a site that mught interset you about the Maltese Cross It's some book isn't it. I read it when it first came out and I am rereading it now. I love many of the quotes for each chapter. >I found a complete etext of Pendulum and searched for >more Columbus references. There is one more, in >chapter 67: > >If I could have invented a Templar castle, it would >have been Tomar. You reach it by ascending a fortified >road that flanks the outer bastions, which have >cruciform slits, and you breathe Crusader air from the >first moment. The Knights of Christ prospered for >centuries in that place. Tradition has it that both >Henry the Navigator and Christopher Columbus belonged >to that order, and in fact it devoted itself to the >conquest of the seas — making the fortune of Portugal. >The knights' long and happy existence there had caused >the castle to be rebuilt and extended through the >centuries, so to its medieval part were joined >Renaissance and Baroque wings. I was moved as I >entered the church of the Templars, which had an >octagonal rotunda reproducing that of the Holy >Sepulcher, and I was surprised to see that the >Templars' crosses had different forms, depending on >their location. It was a problem I had encountered >before, when I went through the confused iconography >on the subject. Whereas the cross of the Knights of >Malta had remained more or less the same, the Templar >cross had been influenced by periods and local >traditions. That's why Templar-hunters, finding any >kind of cross in a place, immediately think they've >discovered a trace of the knights. > >--- > >"I say they located the silver mines in the New World, >caused eruptions of silver there, and then, >controlling the Gulf Stream, shifted that precious >metal to the Portuguese coast. Tomar was the >distribution center; the Foret d’Orient, the chief >storehouse. This was the origin of their wealth. But >this was peanuts. They realized that to exploit their >secret fully they would have to wait for a >technological advance that would take at least six >hundred years." [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: The Christopher Columbus thread Author: exa [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 22:05:31 06/10/04 Thu >Hope you don't mind me jumping in here. Here is a site >that mught interset you about the Maltese Cross No problems, more the merrier. Did you try to activate the link with html? I tried that and had problems. Could you give the URL plain? Thanks. >It's some book isn't it. >I read it when it first came out and I am rereading it >now. > >I love many of the quotes for each chapter. I think I've read around half. Here's the etext (1.2MB) http://textz.gnutenberg.net/textz/eco_umberto_foucault-s_pendulum.txt [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: The Christopher Columbus thread Author: rosy [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 08:45:33 06/11/04 Fri Sorry link didn't work. I'll try again. http://www2.prestel.co.uk/church/oosj/cross.htm >>Hope you don't mind me jumping in here. Here is a site >>that mught interset you about the Maltese Cross > >No problems, more the merrier. Did you try to activate >the link with html? I tried that and had problems. >Could you give the URL plain? Thanks. > >>It's some book isn't it. >>I read it when it first came out and I am rereading it >>now. >> >>I love many of the quotes for each chapter. > > >I think I've read around half. Here's the etext (1.2MB) > >http://textz.gnutenberg.net/textz/eco_umberto_foucault- >s_pendulum.txt [ Post a Reply to This Message ]