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Date Posted: 13:03:06 08/17/04 Tue
Author: mnaz
Author Host/IP: 24.18.140.3
Subject: Getting caught vs. Protest.
In reply to: cat 's message, "Re: Civil disobedience" on 15:40:29 08/16/04 Mon

Well, Cat...

Happening to "get caught" is not what I have in mind here.... more like intentionally, publicly getting caught, to draw attention to an issue.... like if a group marched on Wash. DC, smoking pot and carrying signs, and this group was then arrested on national TV and thrown in jail... civil disobedience as protest.

My main beef here is the de facto establishment-skewed, default perception that the cause must be invalid automatically if its proponents resort to breaking rules. (one of the main points of the protest to start with).

I also found it interesting that some people consider Thoreau's protest to be a fraud, since he accepted his release when someone else paid his tax. It seems to me that he gave up his freedom for awhile and perhaps risked his reputation to make a point... the point being to draw public attention to the injustice of the Mexican-American War. The point wasn't about how long he could stand to rot in prison, according to stubborn "pure principle".

Anyway. Those are just my thoughts on it.


>I don't think it's a question that can be answered
>with a simple yes or no, even generally.
>
>Nonviolent civil disobedience was used to great effect
>in India. You imply here that we may approve of civil
>disobedience if we approve of the cause. Conversely,
>if we don't approve of the cause, then we won't
>approve of the disobedience. Maybe it's more a matter
>of degrees. What's at stake? Is it a life-or-death
>issue? Does the oppression of a whole people or group
>of people hang in the balance?
>
>Maybe it isn't so much approval of the cause as
>whether the cause weighs heavily or lightly in balance
>with the disobedience.
>
>On the other hand -- you also have to ask who your
>civil disobedience affects? Does it just affect you
>and no one else?If you break the law, and go to jail,
>and that's your whole point, aren't you just bringing
>trouble down on your own head?
>
>What about buying and smoking pot? There you have an
>example of millions and millions of people in an
>almost constant state of civil disobedience and the
>law hasn't changed and it isn't likely to. Pot
>smoking-- as civil disobedience--therefore, isn't very
>effective. If you get caught with the right amount in
>hand, you go to jail but the law is still the law. No
>change. A lot of risk for very little payback(not
>counting the high, OC) ...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>Generally, does it do more to advance the cause, or to
>>set it back? A couple of examples come to mind: the
>>illegal gay marriages sought and granted in San
>>Francisco recently, and Thoreau's stint behind bars
>>for non-payment of taxes in protest of the
>>Mexican-American war.
>>
>>But asking and answering this question is a little
>>tricky.
>>In the long-term, history judges whether these actions
>>are effective. But as they occur, it seems their
>>legitimacy and potential to effect change are judged
>>strictly according to whether or not one believes in
>>either the cause or perhaps the concept of civil
>>disobedience to begin with.... The status quo tends to
>>use its own rules to discredit any challenge to those
>>same rules. Any thoughts on this?

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