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Date Posted: 06:48:14 03/05/01 Mon
Author: Gonzo the Great
Subject:

TD - Taim's ablilities and knowledge

G1) LOC 93 A New Arrival
"I hear you hid what happened to Musar and Hachari and their wives." The mockery was gone; he was just relating what had happened, now. "They shouldn't have tried to kill me under a parley flag. I trust you found them good places as servants? All they'll really want to do now is serve and obey; they won't be happy otherwise. I could have killed them. They all four drew daggers.
ATD: This is proof (considering part A)) that MT had a lot of skill with the OP. A change such as the one he describes is clearly beyond what Verin can do after decades of study of Compulsion. Yet, considering Bashere's reaction, the event did happen. I would say that Taim discovered a trick similar to the one used by many AS wilders, but he could develop it aided by a lot more talent and unhampered by AS prejudice.
C: MT was a powerfull and skilled channeler. That suggests TD is not necessary to explain the things Taim later knows or learns.

G2) LOC 104 A Woman's Eyes
"This is a gateway," he told Taim. "I'll show you how to make one if you didn't catch it." The man was staring at him. If he had been watching carefully, he should have seen Rand's weaving of saidin; any man able to channel could do that.
PTD: It says Taim was staring at Rand, so how could he learn the weaves if the gateway did not cut Rand in two?
C: Rand believes Taim could have learned, and he knows more about learning to channel than we do. If Rand thinks Taim was looking in the right direction, then he probably was. This cannot be used as PTD. Of course, it is in no way ATD, because Demandred could have been acting interested without explaining he had learned this weave 4000 years ago in the same class as his good friend Lews Therin, whom later went regrettably mad and killed his whole family.

G3) LOC 107 A Woman's Eyes
"You haven't tested any of them yet? Why, in the name of ... ? You cannot, can you? You can Travel, but you do not know how to test for the talent."
PTD: Taim's use of the word Travel is very remarkable. As far as we know, Rand has not used that designation in Taim's presence.
ATD: There are a number of alternative explanations. First, Taim could have learned about Traveling in the same way that AS learned about it: by reading old books. Second, while Taim was captured by the Shadow, he might have been taught a few things, possibly including Traveling. Third, it could be fairly common knowledge in Caemlyn that the DR could Travel. All Taim would have done was listen to the Exploits of the Dragon as told by the resident gleeman in the taproom of his choice. Fourth, we cannot be certain we heard the whole conversation between Rand and Taim. Maybe Rand did mention Travelling, but RJ edited it out in the interests of brevity.
PTD: Taim uses the word talent for the ability to channel.
ATD: Using the word talent for the talent to channel Saidin means nothing more than that Taim is capable of speaking.
C: None of the explanations for the use of Traveling are really convincing, but they are all possible. This is still a strong argument for TD.

G4) LOC 110 A Woman's Eyes
"The more Power that's used," Taim told Damer, "the easier it is to detect the resonance. On the other hand, too big a resonance could do unpleasant things to your mind, maybe kill you, so I'll start small."
PTD: Taim is quite right, but how does he know? If he really has found only a handfull of men with the 'talent', then where does he get his data? There are only two possibilities, either Taim read about it, or someone from the AOL taught him. In the second case, when was he taught?

G5) LOC 110 A Woman's Eyes.
Abrubtly a tiny flame appeared, an inch tall, dancing in midair equidistant between the three men.
PTD: This is exactly the same method that was used in the AOL.
ATD: Using fire does seem logical for a man. It is a strong point for most men, and nowhere near as dangerous as a pocket earthquake would be. Note that even the female AS use a flame as focus for the first practice sessions. Basically, it is not easy to come up with a better use of the Power than a dancing flame for this first test. For the channeler it is easy and very scalable, and for the person being tested it can be quite hypnotic to gaze into a flame, so that his (or her) attention will not wander during the test. This means that it cannot be used as evidence PTD at all.

FG6) LOC 114-5 A Woman's Eyes
"Cleanse saidin," Taim said softly. "I think that would take more power than you can imagine." His eyes lidded thoughtfully. "I have heard of things called sa'angreal. Do you have one you think could actually--"
"Never mind what I have or don't have," Rand snapped. "You teach whoever can learn, Taim. Then find more and teach them. The Dark One won't wait on us. Light! We don't have enough time, Taim, but we have to make do. We have to!"
"I will do what I can. Just do not expect Damer to topple a city's walls tomorrow."
Rand hesitated. "Taim? Keep a watch out for any student who learns too fast. Let me know immediately. One of the Forsaken might try to slip in among the students."
"One of the Forsaken!" It was almost a whisper. For the second time, Taim looked shaken, this time well and truly aback. "Why would--?"
"How strong are you?" Rand broke in. "Seize saidin. Do it. As much as you can hold."
For a moment Taim only looked at him, expressionless; then the Power flooded into him. There was no glow such as a woman could see around another, only a sense of force and menace, but Rand could feel it clearly, and judge it. Taim held enough of saidin to devastate the farm and everyone there is seconds, enough to lay waste as far as he could see. It was not much short of what Rand himself could manage, unaided. But then, the man could be holding back. There was no sense of strain and he might not want to show his full strength to Rand; how could he know how Rand might react?
C: Just to go back to the previous discussion (I may do that, you are not allowed, nyaah, nyaah), Taim knows Flinn's first name even though it is mentioned only once.
PTD: How did Taim learn about sa'angreal? How strong is he really? Why is he worried by the idea that Rand expects Forsaken to infiltrate the BT? Well, on second thought, that last one is not very strong PTD. If he is not a Forsaken himself, not being eager to meet them is rather logical (for the Forsaken, he would be just another DF). If he is, the idea that Rand is onto him would make him worried.
ATD: Of course, we do not really know how many people knew about the existence of sa'angreal, so it is quite possible he could have learned about it in an innocent way. The fact that not all peasants in the Two Rivers know about angreal and such does not prove that a well educated man from Saldaea would not know. If Taim is really Demandred, he would have known that he was almost, but not quite as strong as Rand. He might very well have held back a bit, so as to appear (mostly) harmless. Taim did not do that, but of course it is not certain he would have thought of that.

G7) LOC 294 Lessons and Teachers
"I sent him away," Taim said. "What good are swords?" Another rock exploded. "I can barely avoid stabbing myself, and I have never felt the lack. They have the Power, now."
Kill him, kill him now! Lews Therin's voice echoed hollowly through the Void. Rand stamped the echo out, but he could not stamp out the anger that suddenly seemed a shell around the emptiness containing him.
C: This is another case of LTT raving about killing in Taim's presence, but I will discuss that with a number of other quotes. The important thing here is Taim's disdain for swords. A lot of Taimandrites have use this as part of their proof. My question to them is: what proof is there that Demandred even knows about swords? I have not noticed any scene featuring both Demandred and swords. As far as I can see, this quote is completely worthless in this argument.

G8) LOC 759 The Black Tower
The Dragons climbing the sleeves of his black coat glittered in the sunlight; thread-of-gold would do for the one, but what could make the blue shine so?
PTD: This is a point that has not yet been raised by the Taimandrites, as far as I know. It is quite possible that Demandred knows a few tricks with clothing no one in this Age ever thought of, but it is unlikely that someone from Saldaea has access to a more elaborate tailor than the Tairen or Cairhienin noblewomen. So, if the trick with the blue threats is from the Third Age, Rand would have seen it already, and not wondered about it.
ATD: Every false Dragon used to be a famous tailor. All right, maybe that is not a very convincing defense. :)

G) G1 proves that Taim originally was an accomplished channeler. G4 and G8 are strong points in favor of the Taimandred theory. All in all, this post supports the theory, even though G1 shows there is still reason for doubt.

Still to come:
H) Hiding place
M) Miscellaneous

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Re: TD - Taim's ablilities and knowledge -- Greg2004, 12:21:05 01/14/03 Tue
- Re: TD - Taim's ablilities and knowledge -- Tiphereth, 19:13:28 04/13/03 Sun

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>G1) LOC 93 A New Arrival >"I hear you hid what happened to Musar and Hachari and >their wives." The mockery was gone; he was just >relating what had happened, now. "They shouldn't have >tried to kill me under a parley flag. I trust you >found them good places as servants? All they'll really >want to do now is serve and obey; they won't be happy >otherwise. I could have killed them. They all four >drew daggers. >ATD: This is proof (considering part A)) that MT had a >lot of skill with the OP. A change such as the one he >describes is clearly beyond what Verin can do after >decades of study of Compulsion. Yet, considering >Bashere's reaction, the event did happen. I would say >that Taim discovered a trick similar to the one used >by many AS wilders, but he could develop it aided by a >lot more talent and unhampered by AS prejudice. >C: MT was a powerfull and skilled channeler. That >suggests TD is not necessary to explain the things >Taim later knows or learns. > >G2) LOC 104 A Woman's Eyes >"This is a gateway," he told Taim. "I'll show you how >to make one if you didn't catch it." The man was >staring at him. If he had been watching carefully, he >should have seen Rand's weaving of saidin; any man >able to channel could do that. >PTD: It says Taim was staring at Rand, so how could he >learn the weaves if the gateway did not cut Rand in >two? >C: Rand believes Taim could have learned, and he knows >more about learning to channel than we do. If Rand >thinks Taim was looking in the right direction, then >he probably was. This cannot be used as PTD. Of >course, it is in no way ATD, because Demandred could >have been acting interested without explaining he had >learned this weave 4000 years ago in the same class as >his good friend Lews Therin, whom later went >regrettably mad and killed his whole family. > >G3) LOC 107 A Woman's Eyes >"You haven't tested any of them yet? Why, in the name >of ... ? You cannot, can you? You can Travel, but you >do not know how to test for the talent." >PTD: Taim's use of the word Travel is very remarkable. >As far as we know, Rand has not used that designation >in Taim's presence. >ATD: There are a number of alternative explanations. >First, Taim could have learned about Traveling in the >same way that AS learned about it: by reading old >books. Second, while Taim was captured by the Shadow, >he might have been taught a few things, possibly >including Traveling. Third, it could be fairly common >knowledge in Caemlyn that the DR could Travel. All >Taim would have done was listen to the Exploits of the >Dragon as told by the resident gleeman in the taproom >of his choice. Fourth, we cannot be certain we heard >the whole conversation between Rand and Taim. Maybe >Rand did mention Travelling, but RJ edited it out in >the interests of brevity. >PTD: Taim uses the word talent for the ability to >channel. >ATD: Using the word talent for the talent to channel >Saidin means nothing more than that Taim is capable of >speaking. >C: None of the explanations for the use of Traveling >are really convincing, but they are all possible. This >is still a strong argument for TD. > >G4) LOC 110 A Woman's Eyes >"The more Power that's used," Taim told Damer, "the >easier it is to detect the resonance. On the other >hand, too big a resonance could do unpleasant things >to your mind, maybe kill you, so I'll start small." >PTD: Taim is quite right, but how does he know? If he >really has found only a handfull of men with the >'talent', then where does he get his data? There are >only two possibilities, either Taim read about it, or >someone from the AOL taught him. In the second case, >when was he taught? > >G5) LOC 110 A Woman's Eyes. >Abrubtly a tiny flame appeared, an inch tall, dancing >in midair equidistant between the three men. >PTD: This is exactly the same method that was used in >the AOL. >ATD: Using fire does seem logical for a man. It is a >strong point for most men, and nowhere near as >dangerous as a pocket earthquake would be. Note that >even the female AS use a flame as focus for the first >practice sessions. Basically, it is not easy to come >up with a better use of the Power than a dancing flame >for this first test. For the channeler it is easy and >very scalable, and for the person being tested it can >be quite hypnotic to gaze into a flame, so that his >(or her) attention will not wander during the test. >This means that it cannot be used as evidence PTD at >all. > >FG6) LOC 114-5 A Woman's Eyes >"Cleanse saidin," Taim said softly. "I think that >would take more power than you can imagine." His eyes >lidded thoughtfully. "I have heard of things called >sa'angreal. Do you have one you think could actually--" >"Never mind what I have or don't have," Rand snapped. >"You teach whoever can learn, Taim. Then find more and >teach them. The Dark One won't wait on us. Light! We >don't have enough time, Taim, but we have to make do. >We have to!" >"I will do what I can. Just do not expect Damer to >topple a city's walls tomorrow." >Rand hesitated. "Taim? Keep a watch out for any >student who learns too fast. Let me know immediately. >One of the Forsaken might try to slip in among the >students." >"One of the Forsaken!" It was almost a whisper. For >the second time, Taim looked shaken, this time well >and truly aback. "Why would--?" >"How strong are you?" Rand broke in. "Seize saidin. Do >it. As much as you can hold." >For a moment Taim only looked at him, expressionless; >then the Power flooded into him. There was no glow >such as a woman could see around another, only a sense >of force and menace, but Rand could feel it clearly, >and judge it. Taim held enough of saidin to devastate >the farm and everyone there is seconds, enough to lay >waste as far as he could see. It was not much short of >what Rand himself could manage, unaided. But then, the >man could be holding back. There was no sense of >strain and he might not want to show his full strength >to Rand; how could he know how Rand might react? >C: Just to go back to the previous discussion (I may >do that, you are not allowed, nyaah, nyaah), Taim >knows Flinn's first name even though it is mentioned >only once. >PTD: How did Taim learn about sa'angreal? How strong >is he really? Why is he worried by the idea that Rand >expects Forsaken to infiltrate the BT? Well, on second >thought, that last one is not very strong PTD. If he >is not a Forsaken himself, not being eager to meet >them is rather logical (for the Forsaken, he would be >just another DF). If he is, the idea that Rand is onto >him would make him worried. >ATD: Of course, we do not really know how many people >knew about the existence of sa'angreal, so it is quite >possible he could have learned about it in an innocent >way. The fact that not all peasants in the Two Rivers >know about angreal and such does not prove that a well >educated man from Saldaea would not know. If Taim is >really Demandred, he would have known that he was >almost, but not quite as strong as Rand. He might very >well have held back a bit, so as to appear (mostly) >harmless. Taim did not do that, but of course it is >not certain he would have thought of that. > >G7) LOC 294 Lessons and Teachers >"I sent him away," Taim said. "What good are swords?" >Another rock exploded. "I can barely avoid stabbing >myself, and I have never felt the lack. They have the >Power, now." >Kill him, kill him now! Lews Therin's voice echoed >hollowly through the Void. Rand stamped the echo out, >but he could not stamp out the anger that suddenly >seemed a shell around the emptiness containing him. >C: This is another case of LTT raving about killing in >Taim's presence, but I will discuss that with a number >of other quotes. The important thing here is Taim's >disdain for swords. A lot of Taimandrites have use >this as part of their proof. My question to them is: >what proof is there that Demandred even knows about >swords? I have not noticed any scene featuring both >Demandred and swords. As far as I can see, this quote >is completely worthless in this argument. > >G8) LOC 759 The Black Tower >The Dragons climbing the sleeves of his black coat >glittered in the sunlight; thread-of-gold would do for >the one, but what could make the blue shine so? >PTD: This is a point that has not yet been raised by >the Taimandrites, as far as I know. It is quite >possible that Demandred knows a few tricks with >clothing no one in this Age ever thought of, but it is >unlikely that someone from Saldaea has access to a >more elaborate tailor than the Tairen or Cairhienin >noblewomen. So, if the trick with the blue threats is >from the Third Age, Rand would have seen it already, >and not wondered about it. >ATD: Every false Dragon used to be a famous tailor. >All right, maybe that is not a very convincing >defense. :) > > >G) G1 proves that Taim originally was an accomplished >channeler. G4 and G8 are strong points in favor of the >Taimandred theory. All in all, this post supports the >theory, even though G1 shows there is still reason for >doubt. > > >Still to come: >H) Hiding place >M) Miscellaneous
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