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to the Shamrocks & Stones Book Discussion Board.
We will have guided discussions of selected books.

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"Choose an author as you choose a friend." A. Helps 1813-1879

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Reread & Discussion of Cindy Brandner's books in Cindy's Cottage
Exit Unicorns -- June 28 through July 25
Mermaid in a Bowl of Tears -- July 26 through September 12

Change to Summer Discussion -- Lil, 19:23:19 06/27/09 Sat [13]
I just wanted to let everyone know that I am cancelling the discussion of Waiting for Time. Unfortunately, I did not receive enough volunteers to lead the discussion.

I can reschedule the discussion for Nov 29 - Dec 19, but worry that this might be too much during the holidays.

We will still discuss Crow Lake from Oct 18 - Nov 14.

**Don't forget to pop over to the Cottage to discuss Exit Unicorns and Mermaid in a Bowl of Tears starting tomorrow, June 28.

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Replies:
- Sounds like a good plan, Nalana. Thanks for keeping us organized! (NT) -- E, 07:15:34 06/28/09 Sun
- The re-read has officially started! See you in the Cottage. (NT) -- Carla, 07:33:46 06/28/09 Sun
- I picked up "Waiting for Time" at the library yesterday but I wondered how I was going to keep up with two discussions, my own reading material and being out of town for much to the time. I may or may not read it now, at least there's no pressure. Nalana, I've been meaning to email you regarding "Crow Lake". Is is possible for me to change to the first week of discussions? I'm going to be gone for most of that book discussion, which is a shame, but I'd be around for most of the first week and can email you with the last few days to post if I take the first week. (NT) -- Denise, 09:27:56 06/28/09 Sun
  - Denise, we have moved the discussion to October (see dates above), so if you'd like to volunteer for it then, that would be great. With the EU/Mermaid discussion, it seemed considerate to everyone to move the discussion. Hopefully we'll get to Waiting for Time this year also. Here's the schedule for Crow Lake inside>>> -- Lil, 09:43:00 06/28/09 Sun
    - Sorry for the misunderstanding - I AM talking about October. I'll be on a cruise for most of the discussion in October, probably leaving the 22nd and gone for over two weeks. It would be easier to start the discussion and have it prepared ahead of time. I should be around for the last week but I'll be bagged I'm sure and back to work full time. (NT) -- Denise, 10:47:03 06/28/09 Sun
      - Well that would be me misunderstanding...sorry about that! I'll be glad to put you on the first week. And if you want to send me your summaries/questions for posting, I'd be happy to assist. :-) (NT) -- Lil, 11:07:39 06/28/09 Sun
- Sounds good Nalana. Sorry I couldn't help out with both discussions. I knew that I wouldn't be able to get through WFT and attend to do with enough diligence required for a discussion. (NT) -- Tracy, 11:45:58 06/28/09 Sun
  - Sheesh, I will speak English properly tomorrow ;). I forgot to say that Nalana, you can assign me any time for the WFT and Crow Lake discussions. (NT) -- Tracy, 18:50:03 06/28/09 Sun
    - Thanks, Tracy. I'm still deciding if WFT will work during those weeks between the US Thanksgiving and Christmas. Everyone is usually so busy then. But I'll keep you on my list for Crow Lake. :-) (NT) -- Lil, 08:37:52 06/29/09 Mon
      - LOL! Everytime I see WFT, I read it as WTF and wonder why people are mad and can't figure out WTF they are mad at? LOL! (NT) -- Tracy, 17:43:22 06/29/09 Mon
- I'll post for Crow Lake and WFT, Nalana. Just assign me something. No plans for being out of town anymore this year after the Shindig. (NT) -- E, 14:45:56 06/28/09 Sun
  - Thanks, E. :-) (NT) -- Lil, 18:22:59 06/28/09 Sun
The Granny: Chapters 25 & 26 -- Lil, 09:38:15 06/27/09 Sat [6]

Goodbye Agnes Browne

I could have easily rolled these last two chapters into yesterdays post, but I came to love Agnes in this series and felt her passing deserved its own special day.

- The news about Agnes moves quickly through the family and all but two of her living children are at the hospital.

- The doctor's news is grim. I was so impressed with how Pierre was treated at the hospital.

- Cathy gets word to Buster and Buster attempts to tell Dermot about his mother. Unfortunately, Dermot is in a drunken, angry stupor thanks to overhearing Agnes at the pub. After knocking Buster down, Dermot is left to drink and sleep it off.

- Trevor and Maria fly over as soon as they can.

- Dermot wakes up and realizes what's happened, especially the part about sending Cormac over to Buster's place. He apologizes to Cormac and gets the nerve up to visit his Mammy.

- Agnes is on her way to heaven and has a couple of conversations with her best friend Marion. Agnes says she has to wait to go, something's not quite finished. She's obviously waiting for Dermot. Once she sees Dermot and feels his hand in her's she's finally at peace.

- Soon after, surrounded by her whole family, Agnes became a dragonfly.

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Replies:
- I really enjoyed this series and will keep it on hand to share with others. I thought this ending was good, although very sad. I thought the inclusion of humor with the conversations with Marion were so appropriate and made the sadness just a little less. Now Agnes would be with her best friend. I was grateful that Dermot set his pride aside and showed at the hospital. I wish he would have made up with Agnes earlier, but at least he didn't have to live with the guilt of not being at her side at the end. Thank you, Carla, for suggesting these books! (NT) -- Lil, 09:42:06 06/27/09 Sat
- The story Dermot created about the dragonfly is so lovely, it really should be a children's book! I can just picture Agnes as a dragonfly, flitting from friend to friend in heaven. And just think of all she's been saving up to tell her late husband! Very sad to see Agnes go at such a young age, but I'm not sure the story should have ended any other way. Agnes' release was long overdue. Pierre will be such a good grandpa, and all of Agnes' children are going to be happy and productive people now. Many thanks, Carla! (NT) -- E, 10:51:42 06/27/09 Sat
  - I guess I don't know how else the series could have ended with a significant finis, but I didn't want her to die! She was much, much too young and had so much more life to enjoy with her children and grandchildren. (NT) -- Denise, 11:01:42 06/27/09 Sat
    - Yeah, I hated to see her go, too. To me, she was the lynchpin, but it required something really dramatic and serious to gather them back into her midst one last time. She sure had some talented children, much to be proud of! (NT) -- E, 12:11:34 06/27/09 Sat
- This ending never fails to make me cry. From sadness that Agnes had to go so young and from joy at how happy she would have been to have her family all together in one place again. There is actually one more book in the series, a prequel, called "The Young Wans" about Agnes in her pre-children days. I'm glad everybody enjoyed the books :) (NT) -- Carla, 13:12:14 06/27/09 Sat
The Granny: Chapters 21 - 24 -- Lil, 18:27:26 06/26/09 Fri [4]
- Agnes finds out that Dermot has Cormac and is disappointed that they will be going to stay with Trevor instead of her.

- Dermot finds Cormac to be talkative and inquisitive.

- Dermot gives a modified "birds and the bees" explanation ("lots of love to give") I thought it was a lovely story. :-)

- Dermot gets caught up with Trevor and Maria. Then Cormac comes down from bed and asks where his Mammy is. (Broke my heart, poor kid!)

- Dermot tells the dragonfly story (another amazing tale) and Trevor and Maria see an instant children's book.

- At Pierre's 60th birthday party, Betty announces she's pregnant with her second child. She worries aloud about a long labor, to which Agnes replies: "Don't talk to me about long deliveries. I was so long in labor on me fourth that they had to shave me twice!" This comment cleared the room of all the men! *g*

- Two of Agnes children are having relationship issues: Cathy leaves Mick and Rory & Dino break up.

- Within three years of the Dragonfly book, Dermot is a successful children's author and living comfortably. Unfortunately, he has still not spoken with Agnes.

- Dermot surprises Buster by buying the main house attached to the gatekeepers’ house Buster wanted. The two friends a happily reunited.

- Buster surprises Dermot by introducing Cathy as his girlfriend. *g*

- Agnes and Dermot have a near miss at the Pub. Agnes goes after the man who bought the round once she realizes that the tattoo of B.H.G. stood for the Boot Hill Gang. As she gets up to go, Agnes collapses.

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Replies:
- My heart just broke for both Dermot and Agnes at the Pub. I know her words were said in hurt and anger, rather than truth, but still is must have cut deep for Dermot. I had no idea who Cathy's lover was until we saw the little girl playing outside the gatehouse. (NT) -- Carla, 20:13:54 06/26/09 Fri
- All the various turn of events were so satisfying, although maybe just a bit too good to be true. I was very happy for Dermot and Trevor's success, and thrilled that Cathy had the strength to actually leave that wicked husband of hers. Was so hoping for a reconciliation in the pub. The ending was heartbreaking. We had a similar situation in our family, as Larry's grandmother hung on until the last grandchild made it to her bedside, then she finally let go. Very sweet series of books and a good discussion. My mother is enjoying the series now. (NT) -- E, 05:44:09 06/27/09 Sat
- I was just scared through the last part - scared that Dermot wouldn't get his arse to the hospital in time to see Agnes. Thank goodness he did. I enjoyed those conversations with Marion afterward but when I read the first one, my heart sank and then I knew she was never going to wake up and that made saddened me. I enjoyed the series and thanks to Lil for organizing and Carla for recommending. (NT) -- Tracy, 11:48:23 06/28/09 Sun
The Granny: Chapter 17 - 20 -- Lil, 20:22:45 06/25/09 Thu [5]

Irish Santa

December 1988

- At the beginning of Chapter 17 we get a glimpse into the life of Cormac Carter.

- Apparently Dermot has been watching Cormac at school since his release from prison six weeks prior.

- Dermot is living at a hostel and working as a kitchen porter at the Gresham Hotel.

- Trevor and Maria are married and running their own publishing company – writing and illustrating children’s books. Their business is not doing so well.

- At the beginning of Chapter 19 we see that Agnes has been out searching the streets for Dermot – something she is apparently doing regularly.

- Dermot has taken to reading children’s and teen books. When searching for a book (to steal), he sees one of Trevor’s books on the shelf. He writes the publisher and receives seven more books from Trevor. Although very proud of his younger brother, Dermot calls the stories “crap”.

- Christmas comes, but Dermot does not spend the day with his family (still avoiding Agnes).

- Cathy also makes alternate plans for Christmas – spending the evening with her lover while Mick is visiting his family in Cork.

- At the end of the Christmas evening, Agnes has Pierre take her to deliver a gift to Cormac.

- Dermot happens to be across the street lurking when Agnes arrives. He hides, but Cormac’s aunt tells Agnes that he’s across the street hiding.

- On St. Stephen’s Day, Dermot visits Foleys and tells Mr. Foley everything that has happened to him since the day of the fateful accident that landed him and Buster in jail. He gets stinking drunk and swears that he will get Cormac and be a good father.

- Dermot goes to Cormac’s home and demands him from his aunt. Expecting a fight, Dermot is surprised when the boy is handed over with no squabble.

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Replies:
- Here I was thinking that getting custody of little Cormac would be so difficult for Dermot! That cheeky Cathy, spending Christmas (!) with her lover. I bet we all knew who it was, too. (NT) -- E, 04:40:22 06/26/09 Fri
  - I was taken aback that Cormac was practically thrown at Dermot. I wonder what kind of early childhood he had if there was so little care and concern for him to be given to a stranger (to the boy, and potentially not the father - no direct proof other than the look of him). Yes, the secret lover was no surprise to me either. (NT) -- Denise, 08:38:10 06/26/09 Fri
- You know, I had no idea who Cathy's lover was. Not until the next section, then the clue about the little girl hit me. I couldn't believe who easy it was for Aunt Margaret to just give Cormac away. Was she so heartless? Or did she have enough kids of her own that it was easy to hand him off to some ex-con? Father or not, she could have been a little more concerned for him and maybe not so much about the suitcase. But I am glad they are together and I think Cormac is good for Dermot. I wish Dermot would just make up with Agnes though. This grudge has gone on too long! (NT) -- Lil, 14:53:01 06/26/09 Fri
- I was horrified when Cormac's aunt just handed him over like that. I understand having too many mouths and not enough money, but to just toss the poor little fellow into the arms of a virtual stranger. Poor wee mannikin. I know he and Dermot did well together, and I'm sure having Cormac made a huge differencce in Dermot getting his act together, but still. I do wish Dermot would just go have it out with Agnes, rather than continuing to avoid her. (NT) -- Carla, 20:12:28 06/26/09 Fri
The Granny: Chapters 12 - 16 -- Lil, 12:53:45 06/25/09 Thu [6]
Thanks to Voy being down, I'm a day behind...I'll try to get the next section posted later tonight

Mountjoy Prison

- “Seven Years”

- Agnes writes a letter to Trevor updating him about Dermot’s sentence and Cathy’s impending birth, but unhappy marriage.

- Trevor himself is very happy living in Cookham with Sue & Tony.

- Dermot struggles in his first weeks in Mountjoy Prison – closing himself off from everyone (including Buster). He spends every evening thinking about his family, the baby that Mary Carter claims is his and the widow Cullen.

- Buster adjusts well, taking a letter writing course. Since his parents won’t communicate with him, Buster begins to write Agnes.

- After many visits, Dermot finally finds the topic that he believes Agnes is avoiding – Mary Carter and the baby.

- Agnes and Dermot have words regarding baby Cormac. After some back and forth, Agnes says, “No son. I don’t want you to be just like Mark, but I don’t want you to be just like your father either!” This sends Dermot into a rage and as he’s being restrained he tells Agnes to never come back.

- In Chapter 14 we learn that Dermot returns all of Agnes’ letters, torn in half, and that Agnes and Buster begin writing regularly. Buster also begins corresponding with Cathy.

- Trevor coaches Sue off the relationship “ledge” and tells his story about “the one that got away”. Sue realizes, and shares, that Nicky from Glasgow is Mary Nicholson.

- Over dinner with Trevor, Sue & Nicky, Tony proposes to Sue. And Trevor presents Maria with the last painting. *sigh*

- Cathy and Buster correspond regularly. Cathy shares with Buster the reality of her marriage and life. She feels a sense of relief at sharing her burdens with him.

- Buster is released from prison. On that same day Dermot finds out from a new inmate that Mary Carter has died of a heroin overdose.

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Replies:
- I just knew something would develop, what with all that correspondence between Buster and Cathy. ;-) I loved the line Agnes told Dermot when she visited him in jail, but also figured he'd take such offense by it that he'd fall deeper into his self-loathing as a result. Poor Agnes, bless her heart. (NT) -- E, 13:58:45 06/25/09 Thu
- I finished the book last night - seems I had extra time on my hands somehow with the boards down *g*. Some things I had anticipated, as Elaine mentioned above, the ending no, though. I can't imagine shutting out your mother for all that time - way to hold a grudge! That made me very sad to think that they had missed so much in each other's lives, at least told to one another instead of second hand through Buster. (NT) -- Denise, 14:45:14 06/25/09 Thu
- My heart just broke for Agnes when Dermot reacted so badly to her speech. She's always been plain-spoken with her kids and called them on their behaviour (well, except Frankie and we know how that ended), so I don't really blame Agnes here. She's obviously so distraught over the whole thing. I will admit to grinning like a fool when Sue connected Trevor and Nicky. What he did for her is probably one of the most romantic gestures I've ever heard of, double sigh. (NT) -- Carla, 15:00:03 06/25/09 Thu
  - It was really nice the way they ended up together. I really love Trevor and Mark. (NT) -- E, 15:51:24 06/25/09 Thu
- the scene in the prison between Agnes and Dermot was so sad. I felt terrible for both of them, even though I was glad that Agnes didn't apologize for what she said. She was being honest. It must have been hard for her to hear him say what he did and see that he was serious. I can't imagine being pushed away by one of my kids. :-( (NT) -- Lil, 21:20:35 06/25/09 Thu
The Granny: Chapters 9 - 12 -- Lil, 14:04:42 06/23/09 Tue [7]
- While helping Agnes move the beds around in Dermot’s room, Pierre finds a copy of Mayfair and finds inspiration from an article entitled “Turn me on, Set me loose!”

- Pierre inquires about nipple clamps at the local hardware store.

- We see the different approaches to sex between Agnes & Pierre. She’s got her best Playtex bra and he’s got the bullwhip! *g*

- Trevor has a phone conversation with Nicky from Glasgow (his coworker’s friend). He also negotiates to move in with his friends Tony and Sue – helping them with rent and him out of his tiny rental.

- “Very few of us really understand or witness the full consequences of our pranks.” Unfortunately, the prankster fun for Dermot and Buster come to a terrible end when they kill John Cullen when they him with a stolen bus.

- Dermot & Buster are looking to leave the country, but find a letter and 75 pounds from Agnes in the Chestnut Hole. The letter stops them and they turn themselves in. They go to court and are found guilty of 2nd degree manslaughter.

Question: Would you have written the letter Agnes did?

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Replies:
- I still need one more volunteer for the Waiting for Time discussion. I know we are strapped with two discussions overlapping, but if someone can take either week two or three that would be great! Thanks! Inside for Schedule>>> -- Lil, 14:32:41 06/23/09 Tue
  - Nalana, do you have a particular format in mind for this discussion? Maybe folks feel it's too much, with the upcoming EU and Mermaid discussion? I hope not, have been waiting patiently to read this one. (NT) -- E, 15:43:01 06/23/09 Tue
    - I don't have anything specific in mind, E. Just whatever works - questions, chapter reviews or a combo of both. I am open to whatever works best for the person leading the discussion. I am excited to talk about this book also...and I even watched the mini-series. *g* (NT) -- Lil, 18:42:44 06/23/09 Tue
- Agnes is brilliant. It may have added to Dermot's self-loathing that grew over the coming years, but if she hadn't written it they may have never made the right decision. In fact, I bet Dermot would've left and may have fallen into the same awful downward spiral as Frankie. (NT) -- E, 15:45:38 06/23/09 Tue
  - Dermot had been cruising for trouble since a young age, and I don't think he would have owned up to his actions without his mother's letter tweaking his conscience. Would I have written that letter? Nor sure, but I believe in owning up to your actions and would want my son to do the same if he was responsible for such a sad event. (NT) -- Denise, 19:09:57 06/23/09 Tue
- Those nipple clamps and bullwhip made me laugh out loud and I coulnd't stop. I could just picture poor Pierre turning blue from the clamps. The scene in which he tries to buy them was so funny - well written! The letter was necessary but must have been difficult to write. I'm not sure Dermot could have turned his life around for the better especially with so little education and skills other than B&E so likely would have ended up similar to Frankie. It certainly was a hard way to learn a lesson though. (NT) -- Tracy, 18:28:37 06/23/09 Tue
The Granny: Chapters 5 - 8 -- Lil, 13:35:08 06/22/09 Mon [10]

- Trevor continues to work on the mini-paintings for Maria. She still has no idea they are from Trevor.

- Trevor attempts to attend what he finds out later was Maria's going away party, but it turned away.

- Cathy & Mick marry in August.

- Soon after the wedding, two of the Browne boys move out - Rory (who had come out of the "wardrobe") and Simon (who moved in with his girlfriend Fiona).

- Trevor graduations with top grades and takes a job in London.

- July 1981: Agnes celebrates her 49th birthday with a few organisms. *g*

- Cathy is pregnant, but we learn her marriage to Mick is abusive and unhappy.

- Dermot and Buster conduct a little Breaking & Entering and come face to face with a lion! *g*

I had one question. At the beginning of Chapter 6 there is this statement:

"Agnes Browne's six living children were now all adults. It seems incredible that in their adulthood five of the six should still be living at home. However, this is not unusual for an Irish mother."

What does this comment insinuate about the Irish culture?

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Replies:
- Geez, I need to spell check better...that should be Graduates, not gradutations...duh! Forgive any other typos please! :-) (NT) -- Lil, 13:36:35 06/22/09 Mon
- Re: you question - I think it either infers that the families are close knit and tend to stay together, or what I think may be more likely - they are too poor for children to live apart from their parents. (NT) -- Denise, 13:45:24 06/22/09 Mon
- I felt so sad for Trevor when he learns that he is too late to give her the last miniature. It really bothers me that Mick has become so brutish to Cathy; where did that come from and why? It has me really worried, especially now that she's going to have a baby. Poor, naive dear, thinking the baby will make everything okay between she and Mick. As to your question, I think it's a combination of Irish children almost worshiping their saintly, sacrificing mothers and the whole issue of poverty, as Denise mentioned above. (NT) -- Elaine, 17:44:17 06/22/09 Mon
  - I go back to Agnes feeling there was something not quite right with Mick, then his father's rigid and controlling behaviour. The warning Mick's mother gave to Cathy on her wedding really got me nervous, though. Sadly enough, many women are abused for the first time either during pregnancy or immediately after giving birth. The theory is that the men don't know how to handle the stress of becoming a parent and hit out at the woman. I think they all need a taste of their own medicine, preferably at the hands of someone twice their size who wants to make them their "girlfriend." (NT) -- Carla, 19:47:45 06/22/09 Mon
    - Yes, I think Agnes certainly picked up on the vibes. (NT) -- Elaine, 10:13:35 06/23/09 Tue
    - Remind me not to 'piss' you off - you obviously like to mete out some severe punishment! Not that I disagree with you! (NT) -- Denise, 10:15:28 06/23/09 Tue
      - Well, giving them a taste of their own medicine might help us feel a sense of retribution, but I think it only begets further anger and aggression. And naturally, being cowards basically, they only take it out on the weakest ones around them. I commend Cathy for having the strength to leave. It takes most women many years and numerous attempts before they finally make the break, if they ever do. (NT) -- Elaine, 10:55:42 06/23/09 Tue
- At first glance, it might appear Brendan O'Carrol is saying Irish children revere their mothers, but then there are those like Mrs. Sheridan (the little old lady Buster & Dermo "awarded" the raffle money to) who sacrifices all for her children, who then don't bother to come and see her once they're successful. I do think it's partly economic, partly comfort -- many young adults are living at home today for those reasons -- and partly because at the time, most people didn't move out of their parents house until they moved into their first married home. (NT) -- Carla, 19:50:33 06/22/09 Mon
- I think one of my favourites in this book is Trevor painting the miniatures for Maria. I just loved the romance and the love he poured into those paintings and how he loved her from afar. *Melt* (NT) -- Tracy, 18:23:38 06/23/09 Tue
The Granny: Chapters 1 - 4 -- Lil, 16:15:36 06/21/09 Sun [18]

These two are characters from the TV show Ballykissangel. The antics of Dermot and Buster remind me of the never-successful scheming of these two characters, Liam and Donal. (and if you haven't seen Ballykissangel, its a cute show about a little town in Ireland)

Dublin, 1980

- Mark & Betty are blessed with a son
- During the hospital wait, Agnes goes into sympathetic labor. Dermot announces that the melon she "delivers" should be called Pip! *g*
- Agnes shares her 96-hours-of-labor story. *g*
- Since a name ahd not been picked for the baby, the Browne's were full of ideas - Gerard, James, Jason, William, etc. Luckily, they named the baby "Arrow"! :-)
- Agnes is none to pleased with Pierre's toast - "Welcome Granny!"
- Dermot is seen with "junkie" Mary Carter.
- Trevor is suffering with a secret love for Maria Nicholson.
- We learn about the Chestnut Hole and see Dermot & Buster and their antics in action.
- Mick and Cathy get engaged.

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Replies:
- The guy on the left is in one of my all time favourite movies- 'The Matchmaker'. (NT) -- celtgirl, 16:21:04 06/21/09 Sun
- My mother just gave me her Ballykissangel dvds to borrow! She insists I watch her all-time favorite show. (She really liked the character that CBF played, too - remembers him well.) (NT) -- Elaine, 17:37:32 06/21/09 Sun
  - you'll love them, E. The show is so cute and the first few seasons are really funny. CBF's character was good, but he wasn't a main character so didn't have a lot of development. But he was yummy to look at! :-) (NT) -- Lil, 18:15:10 06/21/09 Sun
    - I loved Assumpta and Father Pete- that was my favourite storyline, I think. Plus I was at the Abbey Theatre seeing a production once, and Father Mike was in the play- I was just thrilled! (NT) -- celtgirl, 18:22:17 06/21/09 Sun
      - My mother's favorite, too. I need to get started on The Granny; I'm already behind! (NT) -- Elaine, 18:53:10 06/21/09 Sun
        
        I caught it on TV only once but was interrupted before I could watch more than 10 minutes. The good thing was the 10 minutes I was able to watch had Colin! Maybe I'll try to get the DVD's and watch it. Is it on rereuns by chance?. (NT) -- Tracy, 20:16:29 06/21/09 Sun
        
        I don't think so, at least not in my area. Here's the website - maybe you can find more information. Click. Maybe your library has the dvd's. (NT) -- Elaine, 07:24:00 06/22/09 Mon
- At this point in time I can totally sympathize with Agnes about being called 'Granny'. I cringe at the thought! DS1 won't be bringing me any surprises any time soon, but the potential for DS2 is great for making me a grandma. He's careful with the contraception, but they're never 100%. Granny - ugghhhh! (NT) -- Denise, 19:07:47 06/21/09 Sun
  - I will bless the day I become a granny. But it's probably going to be awhile longer. Paul's not ready, and that means he's being extremely cautious. (NT) -- Elaine, 20:56:38 06/21/09 Sun
- I didn't realize it was sympathetic labour at first and thought that Pierre had gotten Agnes pregnant! I love how the Maria and Trevor storyline develops. I was honestly hoping that "Arrow" was not the baby's name and was relieved (and rofl) when Mark said it was Aaron. (NT) -- Tracy, 19:48:15 06/21/09 Sun
  - My uncle, who is only 10 years older than I am, and aunt wanted to name their first child "Caitlin" but decided not to as they worried my nan would mispronounce it as "caplin" which is a very small fish, kind of like a smelt, common in Newfoundland. Given her almost Agnes-like propensity for mispronunciations this would not have been an unlikely occurrence. (NT) -- Carla, 20:19:12 06/21/09 Sun
    - LOL! (NT) -- Tracy, 10:29:33 06/22/09 Mon
- Have you noticed that twice now the author has spelled 'craic' as 'crack?' (NT) -- Elaine, 20:54:21 06/21/09 Sun
  - That's the way it's pronounced, right? Yes, I noticed too and wondered if it is sometimes written as 'crack' or there are regional differences. (NT) -- Denise, 21:35:36 06/21/09 Sun
    - I'm wondering if the publisher didn't Anglicize it for the N.A. market. (NT) -- Carla, 06:46:58 06/22/09 Mon
      - Yes, that's probably it. But it still doesn't convey what it's supposed to, and if a reader goes to a dictionary, s/he won't get much meaning from the definitions of 'crack.' Seems to me it would be better to use the Irish word and let people find the real intent behind it, don't you think? (NT) -- Elaine, 07:11:35 06/22/09 Mon
        
        I agree with you. 'Crack', when used as a slang term, refers to drugs which is certainly not the proper intent in usage. (NT) -- Denise, 09:23:05 06/22/09 Mon
The Chisellers - Chapters 17 - Epilogue -- Carla, 10:34:57 06/20/09 Sat [7]
An Irish wake at Guinan's Pub.

The Old Bailey Courthouse in London, England

It's not often you can say the reading of a will made you laugh out loud, but I did just that with the reading of Benjamin Wises' will. "Manny, you little shit." Ha! It was a lovely lightening after the images of Mark crying at the funeral, outside the turf depot and then in Betty's arms after the wake.

Ah, the beauty of karma. It may not have been instant -- but it was fast enough to catch Manny Wise.

By taking the papers, do you think Frankie was trying to make up for the pain and sorrow he'd caused his family? Was he truly a good person under all the terrible things he'd done?

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Replies:
- Yes, that's exactly what I think. Frankie redeemed himself in my eyes, and his family and the staff at the furniture company were the ones who benefited. He never got to know how much of a hero he really was. My heart broke for Agnes. Very good book, a little more intense than The Mammy. I'm so glad Manny got his just deserts. (NT) -- Elaine, 11:44:10 06/20/09 Sat
- Manny just bugged the crap out of me and I thought he was such a slime ball. I'm glad he got what he did! I do think that Frankie took the papers to tye to make up for all the wrong he had done. He may have hit rock bottom or knew he was going to soon and still had something in him that told him the right thing to do before his end came. (NT) -- Tracy, 14:06:54 06/20/09 Sat
  - I enjoyed this book and found that they are short but packed a punch. I finished The Granny last night and enjoyed it just as much. (NT) -- Tracy, 14:07:39 06/20/09 Sat
    - I haven't participated much, I keep forgetting to come over here, but my library doesn't have The Grammy, so I guess I'm done! They don't have Waiting for Time either. (NT) -- TanyaB, 15:25:46 06/20/09 Sat
- Sorry I'm a bit behind here...its been a busy couple of days! I was saddened at the loss of Frankie and was thankful that his last act was an honorable one. Helping his brother/family like that was wonderful. I think that he had a good heart, but just somehow didn't have the ability to make good choices. It's a sad story about him & I felt bad for Agnes. But the wedding was wonderful, Mark being so happy. I really enjoyed the book overall and will post the first part of The Granny discussion later today. Thanks Elaine and Carla for taking the first two weeks. You both did a great job! (NT) -- Lil, 11:17:22 06/21/09 Sun
  - I had hoped that Frankie would have gotten himself back to Ireland and was saddened to find out that he died homeless on the streets like he did. I was hoping with that last good act that he could have turned things around but it was obviously too late. (NT) -- Tracy, 19:50:00 06/21/09 Sun
The Chisellers - Chapters 14 - 16 -- Carla, 14:17:14 06/19/09 Fri [3]
An Irish wedding blessing

National College of Art & Design, Thomas Street, Dublin

Once again Agnes responses when dealing with any type of authority figure cracked me up. And when she and Carmel Dowdall take on the men outside the chip shop, I could just see and hear it. I'm getting more worried about Dermot though, he's going to end up in big trouble if he keeps getting tangled up in these things.

Trevor was thought to be "slow" and yet he's artistically gifted. Do you think people assume those who are different are not bright?

Poor Frankie, he may have done some terrible things, but he didn't deserve to end up the way he has.

Mark and Betty's wedding sounds like a grand time and it was lovely of them to have Pierre walk her down the isle. Such a sad end to this section, though, with the passing of Benjamin Wise.

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Replies:
- The wedding was very sweet and I think Betty is the perfect match for Mark. Dermot worries me, too. I know for a fact that many people do rely on stereotypes (doesn't it make life simpler for them?) and often have negative things to say about anyone who stands out as unique. Poor Frankie. (NT) -- Elaine, 19:16:35 06/19/09 Fri
- I loved that Pierre walked Betty down the aisle. Those moments made me feel so happy for Pierre. I think there is a stereotype that being different equals less intelligence. Just think of all the people in history and today who are different and didn't listen to those who said they were stupid. (NT) -- Tracy, 14:04:31 06/20/09 Sat
The Chisellers - Chapters 11 - 13 -- Carla, 06:01:24 06/18/09 Thu [8]
The irony of Frankie in London working for Manny Wise as a drug dealer and Mark in Dublin running the factory for Mr. Wise would be funny were it not so sad. Like finds like, in the end, though.

Do you think Agnes truly didn't understand what Rory meant when he told her he was gay or do you think she pretended not to understand so she wouldn't have to deal with it? Is the author feeding into stereotypes when he has Rory become a hair dresser rather than a more "manly" occupation?

I loved Dermots reaction to Mick being a garda -- and Agnes'! I was so happy for Pierre when Cathy introduced him as a sort of father and that Agnes said kissing him was lovely. Mark sealed the deal with the flowers and lovely speech for Agnes -- I'm officially in love.

What do you think Frankie found in the safe that caused him to finally rip Manny Wise off?

And finally, hurray for organisms!

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Replies:
- Yes, hurray for organisms! I also adore Mark, and Agnes certainly deserves such a devoted son as he. I wondered if Frankie recognized Mr. Wise's name on the Dublin Papers and had a sudden resurgence of that famous Brown Family loyalty. (I haven't finished the book, so I don't know where this is going.) (NT) -- E, 07:12:21 06/18/09 Thu
  - I haven't finished either, and am also wondering how this detail may play into the ending of the book. Oh, and I agree with your affirmation about organisms! (NT) -- Denise, 08:16:56 06/18/09 Thu
- Yes, the profession as hairdresser is cerainly a stereotype, could have chosen differently but maybe in that time period that profession more than others was know to have gay personel? (NT) -- Denise, 08:19:09 06/18/09 Thu
  - Certainly male hairdressers are almost automatically assumed to be gay -- even today. But then, as now, there are certainly gay men in the trades & white-collar professions. I'm sure the author didn't really mean anything mean-spirited or homophobic by it, I'm just thinking out loud. (NT) -- Carla, 09:20:20 06/18/09 Thu
- I guessed what Frankie saw in the safe and was right when the book ends. I wont say anything now as I dont want to spoil. I love Agnes' sayings like organisms and mortal support - they make me laugh out loud. I'm not sure Agnes understands what it means but I think she has an inkling but just doesn't want to admit it or deal with a gay son. I'm not sure she would be able to completely accept it but she would still love Rory. It seems like it would be ones of those situations 'I know but let's not talk about it out loud'. (NT) -- Tracy, 09:43:26 06/18/09 Thu
- I think its wonderful how Agnes children take to Pierre so well. They could have easily tried to push him out, but they are so accepting and willing to go with what makes Agnes happy. I also guessed what Frankie found in that safe. As for Rory & Agnes. I honestly believe that Agnes knew what was going on, but turned a blind eye to it. Saying it out loud makes it more real, in a way, and I have a feeling Agnes just didn't want to deal with all that repercussions that would result in her outwardly accepting Rory being gay. I think this is different than just being naive...I think she's trying to protect Rory in her own way. (NT) -- Lil, 10:44:28 06/18/09 Thu
- If you think the organisms is funny, wait till "nipple clamps" Bwhahahahaaaaaa (NT) -- Tracy, 18:41:14 06/18/09 Thu
Too Many Books...So Little Time! -- Lil, 12:33:32 06/17/09 Wed [4]

Hello everyone! Sorry to interrupt the discussion, but I wanted to get these two announcements out quickly.

1. I need some volunteers to help out with the Waiting for Time book discussion. Here are the dates - please let me know if you can help.

Waiting for Time
Standard chapter reviews for this book. 6 chapters per week
July 5 – 11 Chap 1 – 6
July 12 - 18 Chap 7 – 12
July 19 – 25 Chapter 13 – 17, Epilogue

2. With the addition of the re-read of Exit Unicorns and Mermaid in a Bowl of Tears being held at The Cottage (look for a schedule to be shared soon!), it seemed smart to move our Crow Lake discussion to later this year. I don't want participation in any of the discussions to be limited because there are too many books to read and discuss. Summer is busy enough as it is! *g* And since Cindy's books are the reason S&S was created, it makes sense to make the adjustment to allow for her books to be discussed.

Here is the new schedule for Crow Lake.

Crow Lake
Standard Chapter reviews for this book. 6 Chapters per week
Oct 18 - 24 Prologue – Chapter 6
Oct 24 - 31 Chapters 7 – 12
Nov 1 - 7 Chapters 13 – 18
Nov 8 - 14 Chapters 19 - 24

I hope these changes work for everyone. I will send out a questionnaire in October to get your inputs on books to read for next year, so feel free to send any recommendations you'd like to see discussed via email. You can also volunteer for the Waiting for Time discussion via email. n_lillie AT cox DOT net is where you can reach me.

Thanks for your understanding of these changes. Now back to Agnes and her Chisellers! *g*
lkjlkjlkj

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Replies:
- haha..sorry for the extra "letters" there at the end...that was me testing that my bold and italics was off...I thought I deleted them, but alas there they are! *g* (NT) -- Lil, 12:34:45 06/17/09 Wed
- Thanks, Nalana. Come on over to the Cottage for the announcement. (NT) -- Carla, 13:27:54 06/17/09 Wed
- I think I can help with both discussions but i've got to check a few things first. (NT) -- Tracy, 18:35:25 06/17/09 Wed
"The Chisllers" Chapters 8 - 10 -- Carla, 06:01:50 06/17/09 Wed [8]
St. George's Arcade, an indoor market in Dublin

Dublin's current bus routes

I'm more than a little worried about Dermot and his light-fingered ways. Why do you think he's gone off the rails like this? Is it for the thrill?

I loved Agnes' encounter with the travel agency man! Poor guy, no wonder he needed a valium. What do you think Agnes would have made of the flight over, the differences between Toronto and Dublin, not to mention going through customs?

Poor Rory. I do not understand how one person can be so cruel to another. Were you surprised that Frankie ran away after what had happened? What do you think Mark would have done if he'd gotten his hands on Frankie? I do understand why Agnes misses him, and is worried, but like Mark I think it's best he's gone.

The biggest laugh in this section, for me, was Cathy Dowdall in the cinema offering to let that poor boy "feel me cherry."

I was glad that Agnes and her chisllers are settling into Finglas and building a new sense of community, but I can't help but think that must be a dreadful commute in the mornings and to miss the sense of history and continuity that comes from living in a long-established neighbourhood.

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Replies:
- I wondered about Dermot too but for some reason his five-finger discounting doesn't seem bad. I mean, I know it's wrong but the scenes seem to be written with a lighter feel to them than Frankie's. I wasn't surprised at all that Frankie ran away like a coward. He never had to take responsibility for himself or anything he ever did, so why now? I do think it's best he left. (NT) -- Tracy, 06:56:45 06/17/09 Wed
- Yes, Dermot's shoplifting ways are very worrisome. It was bad enough to have Frankie heading in the wrong direction, but to have two boys now not abiding the law is very sad. I realize that Frankie's crimes have a more serious overtone, but I still worry for Dermot. As far as Mark's reaction to Frankie after the beating, I think he would have received some of his own! I don't think Mark could have stopped himself from some physical punishment, but it would not have been life threatening. (NT) -- Denise, 07:32:40 06/17/09 Wed
- I knew that scene with Frankie and Rory was coming...Frankie just has no regard for anything. He just does what he wants. I think he had a huge wake-up call when he realized what he had done, but didn't know how to man-up and face his family. I think he could have taken his beating from his family and tried to work things out, but instead he runs and chooses to continue living a life with no responsibility for his action. Dermo is like a split between Frankie and Mark - a little bit of a troublemaker, but with a good heart overall. I think he needs more excitement, the adrenaline rush, the mental challenge that comes from his "five fingered" ways. He's a smart kid who's not sure if he wants to use his powers for good or evil. :-) And that scene in the theater with Cathy D was hilarious! Poor girl hasn't a clue...and neither did the boy! :-) (NT) -- Lil, 09:14:10 06/17/09 Wed
  - I had to laugh, though, at the line that it was the whole experience that confirmed his vocation! (NT) -- Carla, 11:37:40 06/17/09 Wed
    - That was so funny! (NT) -- Lil, 11:54:42 06/17/09 Wed
- I am thoroughly enjoying this series. My mother is starting The Mammy, btw; she's going to love it. (NT) -- Elaine, 14:49:07 06/17/09 Wed
  - She sure will! I was thinking about giving them to Mike to read on his next training trip. He'll have them read in a day and I bet he'd love them. (NT) -- Lil, 16:35:24 06/17/09 Wed
"The Chisellers" Chapters 5 - 7 -- Carla, 19:41:07 06/15/09 Mon [11]
The story of Agnes and Pierre in the hotel had me in stitches. I can only imagine the look on poor Pierre's face when he opened the door and it wasn't whom he was expecting.

I think I'm in love with Mark Browne and I'm older than his mammy, so that really makes me a dirty old woman ;)

Plans for a wooden go-kart

A typical 1970s sofa

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Replies:
- You're not alone, Carla. I'm in love with Marko, too. (NT) -- Elaine, 04:47:20 06/16/09 Tue
  - I think he's the son we want to have - responsible, smart, honorable, caring, etc. There was a huge chance the Mark could turn out like his drinking, abuser dad, but he doesn't. He's a truly loveable man. (NT) -- Lil, 09:23:35 06/16/09 Tue
    - Well yes, but as one of the ladies in the market called out when he went there all dressed up "Hey, Mark, yeh bleedin' ride! Take me, I'm yours." (NT) -- Carla, 10:41:10 06/16/09 Tue
      - oh, yeah, I forgot about that part! :-) That's what I get for not getting my book out. I have permanent CRS! *g* (NT) -- Lil, 11:28:20 06/16/09 Tue
      - Do you think you would find it embarrasing to have your won son drooled over like that? I think it would! (NT) -- Denise, 12:12:22 06/16/09 Tue
        
        I think it would be a little embarrassing, but in this particular case it was said with such a sense of humour and because teasing is such a part of the everyday language among the women it wasn't as embarrassing as it could have been. Could you imagine being David Beckham or Hugh Jackman's mom and seeing nekid or semi-nekid pictures of your son everywhere and reading articles about how hot and sexy they were, not to mention details of their sex lives? That would be discomfiting. (NT) -- Carla, 16:17:36 06/16/09 Tue
        
        Not to mention knowing that your daughter-in-law refers to your son as Golden Balls! (NT) -- Tracy, 17:29:20 06/16/09 Tue
- I lmao when Pierre went out in handcuffs! I just love the writing of the humourous parts of the book. I agree that Mark is a sweetie and such a good head on his shoulders. I think he took on the man of the house role with dignity. (NT) -- Tracy, 05:37:16 06/16/09 Tue
- The book isn't in front of me right now, and I don't want to get too far ahead, but I must say how disappointed I am in Frankie, that he could take part in random violence like that. Agnes overindulged him, but I wonder why he didn't develop a conscience like the rest of her kids. I had no idea skinheads were prevalent in Europe at that time. I don't think they caught on in North America until closer to the 1980's, or maybe I was simply out of the loop at the time. (NT) -- E, 06:59:59 06/16/09 Tue
  - I knew that skinheads were around because we had one skinhead in hour highschool and his cousin was one in England. Now, the skinhead we had was the nicest guy and dressed in Doc's and the whole shebang mostly to annoy his religious sisters. The Doc's seem to be a staple in the skinhead outfit and then they crossed over into mainstream. When I read the scene with Rory, all I could picture were the boots kicking him and how much pain he was in. (NT) -- Tracy, 08:03:56 06/16/09 Tue
The Chisllers, Chapters 1 - 3 -- Carla, 09:20:15 06/14/09 Sun [6]
The tenements in Dublin in the 1960s

A "modern" house in the Dublin suburb of Finglas

A lot happens to Agnes and her crew in the first three chapters, perhaps the most unsettling of which is the announcement that they will be moved miles away to a far suburb of Dublin for at least three years while their current apartment buildings are knocked down and rebuilt. And then she delivers her ultimatum to Frankie -- get a job or get out.

Can you imagine being told you not only have to move, but you have no choice as to where you're going? How well do you think Agnes and the kids will deal with such a life-changing move?

Do you think Frankie was part of the gang chasing Rory? Do you think he would have actually hurt his brother given the Browne code? Why did Marion finally lay down the law to Frankie?

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Replies:
- No, I cannot even begin to imagine being forced to move like that! But I also can't imagine life in run-down tenements like that, either. I was poor as a child, but we had better conditions than Agnes had by far. (NT) -- Elaine, 15:17:30 06/14/09 Sun
- OMG! I finished this book, I finished this book! I don't want to answer because of spoilers though. I will say it was a refreshing book and one that has me more on track with reading again. I cannot imagine having to move without choice as it seems more unsettling especially when thinking about the future and where it will take them. I think the Browne family will be fine once they move together and enjoy the "upgrades". I'll reserve my thoughts on Frankie but I will say he needed a swift kick in the arse a long time ago. (NT) -- Tracy, 06:21:30 06/15/09 Mon
- I've only read the first 6 chapters, so I don't know where this is going, but I will say that the book starts off with a much more sombre tone compared to "The Mammy", especially the news about Frankie. I'm hoping the LOL moments are still here in this book since it was a refreshing change from the other literature I usually read. (NT) -- Denise, 09:13:48 06/15/09 Mon
- Well as someone who "lives on the government dime" *g*, I know how it feels to be told you will be moving from here to here, etc. It happened 2 1/2 years ago when they decided to tear down the housing we lived in. Luckily we got a MAJOR upgrade and didn't have any changes to school district, but it could have ended up being a less than perfect move if new housing hadn't been built. Obviously its different for Agnes and her brood because they have grown up in that community (our's being more transient to change is our constant). When I first read this section, I was trying to figure out how Agnes and the others would keep their income at the market coming. I was trying to understand how far the commute would be and since we know Agnes isn't driving anywhere anytime soon, how was she going to get there? Such an upheaval of her livelyhood. As for Frankie, I am not sure why she doted on him so much, but I was glad she gave him an ultimatum. He needs the "tough love" approach, I'm afraid. (NT) -- Lil, 12:05:12 06/15/09 Mon
  - I think she doted on Frankie because he had been sick when he was younger. I had an awful feeling that heavily doting on him would have a negative affect on Frankie although Agnes was trying to be kind to the boy. (NT) -- Tracy, 19:30:40 06/15/09 Mon
The Mammy, Discussion Day 6 and Final -- Elaine, 19:44:17 06/12/09 Fri [6]

Cliff Richard, Then and Now

What else can I say ~ 'Dream on, Agnes Browne! For everyone's sake, dream on!' and God bless your little heart, Marko.

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Replies:
- Reading about Agnes losing her false teeth reminded me of a true incident with my father. He had to have a few teeth pulled and would have needed a partial to fill in the holes, but he said "screw that" and had all his teeth pulled and got a full set of false teeth. As most of you know, my father was an alcoholic and he used to drink himself into a stupor 3-4 times per week. He went fishing with DH (then boyfriend) after one such session, and had to upchuck over the boat. Out came his false teeth, and down they sunk!. My dad said nothing, Mike said nothing and they fished the rest of the day without a word said about the lost teeth! (NT) -- Denise, 21:39:47 06/12/09 Fri
  - Oh dear! This reminds me of a story about Grandpa, who was teaching my mother (at the time, a little girl) to dive. After one particular example for her benefit, she saw him keep returning down into the water, coming up for air, then going back down underwater. She asked why, and he gummed, 'I lost ma teeth.' Pretty sure he recovered them, but the whole incident was made more humorous because all her little girlfriends were with them at the time. You can imagine how tickled they were. (NT) -- Elaine, 05:34:21 06/13/09 Sat
- Mark is an absolute gem. Much more fitting of the term "man of the house" than his dad ever was, imho. (NT) -- PeggyB, 09:20:17 06/13/09 Sat
  - I found myself wondering if DS1 would be able to 'man up' if something happened to DH. Not that he would have to grow up near as much as Mark did, but I couldn't help wondering. (NT) -- TanyaB, 06:17:30 06/15/09 Mon
- I really enjoyed the scene with the boys in the hotel when they went to get their father's last cheque from the union. And I love the reaction of the children when they see their mammy living her dream. (NT) -- Carla, 14:27:04 06/13/09 Sat
The Mammy, Discussion Day 5 (sorry I'm behind) -- E, 06:09:20 06/12/09 Fri [9]

Foley's Pub in Dublin (probably not *the* Foley's Select Pub) and Cliff Richard performing in concert in the late 1960's

A lot happens in this section. Marion dies suddenly, Mark gets a little job from a very interesting fellow, Agnes goes out on a date with a Frenchman, we learn that Cliff Richard will soon be in town for a concert, and Mark decides he wants to be a carpenter.

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Replies:
- I couldn't recall Cliff Richard, found a youtube clip that I did recognize......cheers Agnes >>>>>>>>>>> -- PeggyB, 08:11:10 06/12/09 Fri
  - Oh sure, I remember that one, too. Thanks, Peggy. First time I read this book I thought Cliff Richard was a fictitious name. (NT) -- Elaine, 08:17:39 06/12/09 Fri
    - I was going to check if it was fictitious, but then you posted. It had a ring of familiarity about it, but I couldn't place it. (NT) -- PeggyB, 09:40:38 06/12/09 Fri
  - I can totally see Agnes singing and dancing with her mop to this one! *g* (NT) -- Lil, 09:56:33 06/12/09 Fri
- Agnes is amazing. She's like, what, 35 years old? She has 7 kids, in the space of half a year she's lost both her husband (I won't say DH) and her best friend. And yet she carries on like a trooper. (NT) -- PeggyB, 09:44:01 06/12/09 Fri
- The loss of Marion was so sad. I really felt terrible for Agnes. The void after losing Marion must have been tough. Suddenly no one to share a ciggy with or walk to work with, no one to share your stories with or laugh with. Such a loss. I was so pleased to see Mark find a passion for something. And Agnes dating a Frenchman...oooh la la! *g* (NT) -- Lil, 10:01:29 06/12/09 Fri
- Mark is growing into a fine young man. Thank heavens Agnes has such a son. I cannot imagine what a huge hole Marion's death left in her life, though. Having a good friend to share your troubles makes all the difference in the world. I did have to laugh though, at Agnes' response to Pierre's kiss. Did Irishmen not use tongue when they kissed? I can see the whole lack of knowledge about giving a woman an organism, but not kissing with tongue just seems a little too backward. (NT) -- Carla, 14:24:10 06/13/09 Sat
  - I liked Mark immediately. I was hoping his life and his behaviour would go the way I wanted them to rather than Mark rebelling against the "man of the house" role. I think he will do well. (NT) -- Tracy, 06:26:24 06/15/09 Mon
The Mammy, Discussion Day 4 -- Elaine, 16:54:38 06/10/09 Wed [11]

Marion talks about dreams and desires, and throws Agnes for a loop. What must it be like to live their lives, working at the stalls day in and day out, knowing that what they're experiencing today may well be as good as it will ever get for them?

Despite Marion's condition, we encounter a lot of humor in these next chapters. From an orange wigwam to driving lessons in a bisexual car, with Agnes along for mortal support, and a driving constructor whose knob needs a wank.

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Replies:
- Was anyone else crushed that Marion died before getting to drive? What a simple dream...and she'd already paid for it. (NT) -- PeggyB, 17:04:32 06/10/09 Wed
  - Yea, but what if she had been horrible at it? Then her dream would have been squashed. (NT) -- TanyaB, 08:41:59 06/11/09 Thu
    - I don't think she would have realised she was horrible at it, even if she was the worst driver ever. For Marion, the thrill of being behind the wheel of a car, of making it go and driving it places would have been a huge joy. She looked for, and therefore found, the joy and the positive in all things. (NT) -- Carla, 09:19:08 06/11/09 Thu
- I think part of being happy with what you have (or despite what you don't have) is expectations. In large part, these women don't really 'get' that there is more to life than work, having kids and coping with husbands who perhaps drink too much, don't make much money and have little regard for them (although Tommo sounds like a good man). It's like the whole organism thing, you don't know what you're missing when you don't even know it exists. I think this is why children in poor countries are so thrilled with simple, small things while many of ours are unhappy with whatever they've got, because they see the bigger, better version on tv, at their friends or in the stores. Of course, the author is also only showing us the light episodes, for the most part. And in a way, Agnes really is giving Marion mortal support. (NT) -- Carla, 05:36:14 06/11/09 Thu
  - I love what you said, Carla! (NT) -- Elaine, 07:39:51 06/11/09 Thu
  - I love it too! And you can't have too much mortal support! *g* (NT) -- Lil, 11:03:23 06/11/09 Thu
- I'm not up to this chapter yet but so far I am enjoying this book. The first few chapters had me laughing out loud. I liked when they were at the government office and trying to fill out the forms - their answers were hilarious! (NT) -- Tracy, 09:22:25 06/11/09 Thu
  - Larry just started reading it, too, and was also laughing out loud. Agnes' view of life is so delightfully uncomplicated, and she and Marion are brutally blunt! (NT) -- E, 15:23:36 06/11/09 Thu
- Will post tomorrow - sorry to be late. Nasty headache and a general intolerance of anything requiring thought tonight. Please forgive. (NT) -- Elaine, 21:12:50 06/11/09 Thu
  - Sleep well, E. (NT) -- PeggyB, 21:30:11 06/11/09 Thu
The Mammy, Discussion Day 3 -- Elaine, 18:06:35 06/09/09 Tue [16]

I don't remember knowing anyone who was diagnosed with breast cancer in the 1960's. I wonder how treatment differed then from today.

Catholic schools sure get a lot of bad press, and so do nuns. My stories aren't as bad as my mother's; in fact, mine are more funny than painful. I just recall hearing those big rosary beads click together before ever seeing Sister Whomever herself turn the corner. Those big rosaries were a blessed warning to me on more than one occasion!

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Replies:
- I love the image of Agnes and Marion sitting on their up-turned crates having a mug-up and a ciggie. Such a hard life, really, when you look at the bits and pieces of it and yet they find such joy and love in every day. (NT) -- Carla, 20:17:38 06/09/09 Tue
- I was reading the court scene at lunch today and had a LOL moment ..... "assault with a.....cucumber!" (NT) -- PeggyB, 22:10:41 06/09/09 Tue
- Never heard of Bovril before, so off to google! Apparently it is similar to what we call beef boullion in the USA. Available in concentrated liquid or cubed form. Wikipedia: Bovril is the trademarked name of a thick, salty meat extract, developed in the 1870s by John Lawson Johnston and sold in a distinctive, bulbous jar. It is made in Burton upon Trent, Staffordshire and distributed by Unilever UK. Bovril can be made into a drink by diluting with hot water. It can also be used as a flavouring for soups, stews or porridge, or spread on bread, especially toast, rather like Marmite. The first part of the product's name comes from Latin bos (genitive bovis) meaning "ox" or "cow". Johnston took the -vril suffix from Bulwer-Lytton's then-popular 1870 "lost race" novel The Coming Race, whose plot revolves around a powerful energy fluid named "Vril". (NT) -- PeggyB, 07:53:17 06/10/09 Wed
- I'm late but have got the books now and will be catching up tonight! (NT) -- Tracy, 11:37:53 06/10/09 Wed
  - Glad you can join us! (NT) -- E, 12:18:37 06/10/09 Wed
  - Cool! (NT) -- Lil, 12:47:48 06/10/09 Wed
  - Enjoy! (NT) -- PeggyB, 13:00:50 06/10/09 Wed
- The theme I find in these next few chapters is the connection and relationships of those in the Jarro community. They are there to commiserate over Marion's breast cancer and cover while she and Agnes visit the doctor. And then as Cathy's been wronged by the nun, the community rallies around Agnes and her trip to the "clink" and her day in court. I just find that so unique...something I've never experienced in my lifetime. (NT) -- Lil, 13:25:27 06/10/09 Wed
  - We're such a mobile society, I've never really felt that sense of "community" either (well, maybe here on the boards). (NT) -- PeggyB, 16:42:01 06/10/09 Wed
    - Yes, here on the boards there is a deeper sense of community than I experience in my neighborhood! (NT) -- Elaine, 16:55:22 06/10/09 Wed
      - You are both right...I didn't mean to discount the boards...I was just thinking from a local perspective. I haven't lived in a place yet where the neighborhood has rallied like theirs. Thank goodness I have S&S to help feed that need! :-) (NT) -- Lil, 17:53:35 06/10/09 Wed
        
        The community I grew up in back in the late '50's and early '60's sounded very much like the Jarro - we were poor but everyone banded together. Haven't experienced it since, though. (NT) -- Elaine (), 18:35:00 06/10/09 Wed
  - In that sense, I feel very lucky as the neighbourhood where I live is very much a community. Ironically, we're in the city and supposedly it's the suburbs where there's a "family" and "community" atmosphere, but the times I've lived in the suburbs have been the times I've felt most isolated. Here, everybody walks to school, the shops, kids activities, etc. so we get to know each other, we see the same people all the time. It's wonderful. I'll put some examples of the community spirit in my little part of the big city inside >>> -- Carla, 05:29:54 06/11/09 Thu
    - Having lived in the "burbs" most of my life, I think you've really hit on it Carla. We are very isolated, we drive to the store, church, work, etc. rather than walk, we aren't "in" the community except in our after work hours and then we're usually inside. It's like the difference between commuting to work in my car vs. bike commuting on the trail---in the cars we're all anonymous and get into the road rage mentality. On the trail, you see people face-to-face, you smile and say hi or wave....like last fall when I stopped simply to take off my jacket and 2 other bikers asked if I was ok....wouldna happen if I was pulled over on the side of the road with my car! I think community is about connections, and we have too few of those in our busy day-to-day life, at least in my experience. (NT) -- PeggyB, 08:09:48 06/11/09 Thu
    - I have to agree with you, Carla. Lived here 15 years and still don't know most of my neighbors. They all work during the day, or are retired and don't get out much. I also don't get out much (when the neighbors are home) because of stuff to do with the kids, etc. (NT) -- Elaine, 11:17:17 06/11/09 Thu
The Mammy, Discussion Day 2 -- Elaine, 12:04:37 06/08/09 Mon [14]

The next few chapters all had a certain organic nature to them, what with organisms, bananas that aren't at all like mickeys (they don't get bigger when you squeeze them), worms in gick, and warm willies in swimming weather!

[ Post a Reply to this Message ][Edit]

Replies:
- I'm learning lots of new words reading this book. (NT) -- PeggyB, 14:37:21 06/08/09 Mon
  - me too! :-) (NT) -- Lil, 15:32:02 06/08/09 Mon
- Okay, chapter 7 has got to be one of the most hilarious chapters! The way she interacts with her kids is so funny - "Mark...Mark..Mark. Janey, Ma, you sound like a dog with a hair lip. I'll hair lip you in a minute." Hahaha! From the gick to the willy to her children trying to keep their laughter under control to her thinking she's a 'modern woman' by answering Mark's question....I was laughing out loud the whole time! (NT) -- Lil, 15:35:45 06/08/09 Mon
  - Yeah, that one had at least one laugh per paragraph. (NT) -- Elaine, 16:07:59 06/08/09 Mon
- Jaysus, and don't we all love organisms! I was just about 'pissin' my pants reading some of these chapters while at work. Someone must have thought me daft! (NT) -- Denise, 16:53:47 06/08/09 Mon
- Speaking of new words...does anyone know how the area they lived in became known as The Jarro? (NT) -- Lil, 19:10:57 06/08/09 Mon
  - All I remember is that the main road was called St. Jarlaith. (NT) -- Elaine, 19:57:24 06/08/09 Mon
    - that's probably why then... :-) (NT) -- Lil, 16:21:11 06/09/09 Tue
- Another question...although it was a hilarious moment as it was written....do you think that Mark would have asked Redser about his willy situation if he was alive? Or do you think that Agnes would still have dealt with the question? I am guessing Redser wouldn't have been involved, but wondered what others thought since we are dealing with a widow with all those boys. (NT) -- Lil, 19:14:26 06/08/09 Mon
  - Good question! I think Mark would have avoided Redser on his own. It sounds as though he kept his distance from the kids. But if Redser was still alive, it's possible Agnes might have referred Mark to him for a father-son talk, seeing how she copped out with her answer anyway. (NT) -- Elaine, 19:51:59 06/08/09 Mon
    - I think Elaine is right. Although the most poor Mark probably would have gotten from Redser (if he'd actually gone to him) was a cuff upside of the head or a very ill-informed and crude answer. (NT) -- Carla, 20:17:16 06/08/09 Mon
- I don't know if we have a structure, so I may be jumping ahead. I was reading last night about Cathy's interaction with her teacher which resulted in the teacher cutting her hair. I couldn't help but compare that with today. If a teacher dared to cut a kid's hair in a US school today, you know there'd be a law suit coming! (NT) -- PeggyB, 10:40:36 06/09/09 Tue
  - So true. However, such things did happen when I attended Catholic school in the 1960's. And much worse happened when my mother attended Catholic schools. A nun accused my mother of having a venereal disease because of her bad acne, was forced to learn to write with her right hand, and was ostracized because she had trouble with math. It was horrible for her. (The 'structure' I'm following is basically looking at 3 or 4 chapters per day, and writing a general comment or two. Jumping ahead a bit won't negatively impact a thing, Peggy.) (NT) -- Elaine (), 13:54:36 06/09/09 Tue
The Mammy, by Brendan O'Carroll -- Elaine, 19:45:38 06/06/09 Sat [21]

A Hillman Hunter Automobile

Just a few thoughts. Please post any and all comments.

~ A real comedy of errors, these first few chapters.
~ Agnes is one tough little cookie, not wanting anyone to think she'd been crying.
~ I can't imagine having 7 kids in 14 years with a man who never offered me a cigarette. (Realizing that this was taking place in the 1960's when smoking was not the taboo that it is today.)

[ Post a Reply to this Message ][Edit]

Replies:
- Not a terribly profound thought, but I can't imagine having 7 kids in 14 years with ANYBODY! (NT) -- Carla, 07:14:17 06/07/09 Sun
  - Haha! Well, this wasn't unusual for Catholic families, and that was a different time. I don't think Redser was the type of man to accept 'no' or 'I have a headache.' (NT) -- Elaine (), 11:37:17 06/07/09 Sun
    - (blech, so much for my first post on this board!!) (NT) -- TanyaB (), 16:34:13 06/07/09 Sun
    - What got me was that even as late as the 60's she hadn't a clue about 'organisms'!! (NT) -- TanyaB (), 16:34:35 06/07/09 Sun
      - Now that's just plain pitiful, isn't it? (NT) -- Elaine, 18:14:36 06/07/09 Sun
    - I have these books but have not started reading yet - I hope to catch up with the discussion this week. I did have to pop in here though - Glenn's parents had 6 kids in 13 years. I'm sure they thought they were done at ages 43 & 42, with their oldest son 21 yrs old, but then Glenn came along *g* The man has 2 nephews only 6 months younger than him. (NT) -- Mahri, 19:17:09 06/07/09 Sun
      - Wow! (NT) -- Elaine, 20:55:30 06/07/09 Sun
  - Two of my good friends in Junior High were sisters in a Catholic family of, iirc, 7 kids. The oldest was a year older than I and the youngest a toddler, so that would be 7 in about 13 years. We have a neighbor with 5 kids in 12 years....and they aren't even Catholic (nor yet LDS)! Great family, though, great kids. (NT) -- PeggyB, 23:00:27 06/07/09 Sun
  - My dad knew a family that had 21 children- funnily enough their last name was Roy. :) (NT) -- celtgirl, 07:23:34 06/08/09 Mon
    - OMG!!!!! All from one mom????? No way!!!!! (NT) -- PeggyB, 08:16:56 06/08/09 Mon
      - Yes, all from one mom. Pat's grandma on his mom's side had thirteen. (NT) -- celtgirl, 08:22:41 06/08/09 Mon
      - Maybe there was a set or two of twins in this group? (NT) -- Elaine, 14:12:45 06/08/09 Mon
    - Glenn's aunt had 20 - don't know in what length of time - they had a pretty good size working farm so who knows if it was the Catholic thing or just needing farm help or both *g* Both of his parents came from families of 13 as well - I've told him that's why he needed to marry someone from out of state - he has no idea who he's related to around there hahaha (NT) -- Mahri, 08:33:00 06/08/09 Mon
      - Haha! You *sure* you two aren't related? My FIL came from a family of 14, and not Catholic; all the boys were in WWII, and all came home. When I was in Catholic grade and high school, I knew many families with 6+ kids. One family had 17 I think. The husband was not a well-liked man among the women of the parish. I think they really felt sorry for his quiet, mousy little wife. (NT) -- Elaine, 14:12:16 06/08/09 Mon
- Anybody else shaking their heads over the men who thought the best solution was to push the hearse to the cemetary???? OMG!! LOL!! (NT) -- PeggyB, 17:27:30 06/07/09 Sun
  - Oh yeah, now those guys must have stopped by the pub prior to the funeral. Looked up Ballybough Cemetery and it was the main Jewish cemetery in Dublin. (NT) -- Elaine, 18:16:35 06/07/09 Sun
- I don't have my book in front of me, but I thought it was pretty interesting that she was at the government offices within hours of Redser's death...like she knew she had to get there ASAP or she might not get things taken care of. I couldn't tell if it was grief induced or just Agnes being practical. She was so funny in that office with that young girl. (NT) -- Lil, 09:35:34 06/08/09 Mon
  - Well, I didn't sense a whole lot of grieving over Redser's death. She seemed completely out of her element in the govt office. Sounds like they were living hand-to-mouth and she was concerned about missing even one day's worth of compensation. I thought perhaps it was her friend who told her she needed to get down there asap, but that was just a feeling. (NT) -- PeggyB, 09:53:44 06/08/09 Mon
    - Agreed, Peggy, I don't think Agnes was too grieved over Redser's passing, and who could blame her, it must have been almost a relief that he was gone. (NT) -- celtgirl, 10:11:53 06/08/09 Mon
      - Funny when Marion asked her if she missed "it" .... I'm surprised Marion would miss "it" given her sparcity of organisms. (NT) -- PeggyB, 10:52:48 06/08/09 Mon

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