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• I enjoyed this chapter, although given Claes other hidden talents, I did wonder if he was better at riding and fighting than he was letting on. The de Fleurys are truly horrible people. (NT) -- Carla, 05:36:23 02/09/10 Tue
  • I always wonder that myself, Carla, if he isn't just keeping the wool over their eyes regarding his skills. He wouldn't likely be great at it, without any previous training, but I always suspect the falling off the horse and stuff as just more clowning around on his part- he wants everyone to think he's a buffoon and cultivates that image quite a bit. (NT) -- celtgirl, 08:20:59 02/09/10 Tue
    • Hard to say. He sure learns quick, when he wants to- that's for sure. (NT) -- susiej, 08:29:53 02/09/10 Tue
      • I don't know if it is fair to assume, like Lymond, that there are many hidden talents with this boy. I think having read the Lymond Chronicles, I'm tainted in viewing Claes without a lot of suspicion that he is much more than outwardly appears. I could be all wrong, mind you, but the wheels keep spinning! (NT) -- Denise, 09:29:32 02/09/10 Tue
        • Claes is one to play very close to the vest, so I'm of the opinion that he is pretty much a natural at most things, but doesn't want it to become known until and unless it is absolutely necessary. Far better to be considered clownish and unimportant than to suddenly become the center of everyone's focus. He can operate much more smoothly when everyone's attention is focused elsewhere. (NT) -- E, 11:21:55 02/09/10 Tue
• This is a fun chapter. In some ways, this is really the beginning of the story and the rest is the backstory that with Lymond we didn't get to see straightout but learned in bits and pieces along the way. Which is one of the reasons, Claes is more immediately likeble than Lymond. As for Mariam, I really like her. In reference to Cindy's post, I see Mariam as very sympathetic with some similarites to Kate, another sympathetic Dunnett female. The thing with Dunnet is that her MCs are these extremely sensitive, smart and sexy males- if they always ran up against kind, caring women, there'd be no story. And really the men don't fare so well either. (NT) -- susiej, 06:56:45 02/09/10 Tue
  • Susie- spoiler here for those who haven't read most of the books>>> -- celtgirl, 10:01:11 02/09/10 Tue
    • Cindy (Big spoiler>>>> -- susiej, 11:04:42 02/09/10 Tue
      • Susie (major spoilers)>>> -- celtgirl, 13:07:09 02/09/10 Tue
• Again, I don't think it's probably fair, but I am thinking that Tobias might have somewhat the same purpose as Archie's character in the Lymond books. He's a bit of a protector, but maybe not so enthusiastically as Archie. I'm waiting to see on this one. (NT) -- Denise, 09:32:24 02/09/10 Tue
  • Tobie is far more interfering than Archie, I never once wanted to choke Archie, while I feel that way many, many times about Tobie throughout the series. (NT) -- celtgirl, 10:27:45 02/09/10 Tue
    • Me too. Tobie is judgemental and on this reread I'm seeing he stuck around (without being asked ) for a hope of profit and his own curiosity. Not such high ideals himself. (NT) -- susiej, 11:00:12 02/09/10 Tue
      • I wondered about him. I haven't read any further than today's chapter so I have a lot to learn about Tobie, I see. He wasn't coming across as all goodness and kindness, but I wondered if this relationship was heading to one of friendship and caring. Guess maybe not. (NT) -- Denise, 11:17:19 02/09/10 Tue
        • I think Tobie has great hopes in Claes, but isn't always happy with the way Claes executes things- there is, however, genuine fondness between them. (NT) -- celtgirl, 11:20:07 02/09/10 Tue
          • I often wanted to smack Tobie throughout the series. But yes, there is a fondness there, but not on the same level as between Archie and Lymond. Archie fully understood everything about Lymond; Tobie, though, either overlooks or is blind to important aspects about Claes, creating a bit of turbulence in their relationship. There are several friends of Claes' who just don't seem to know *when* to back off. (NT) -- E, 11:27:23 02/09/10 Tue
            • Been wondering how your ankle is, E? Hope you're enjoying your time away. (NT) -- celtgirl, 14:10:46 02/09/10 Tue

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• Can't believe I did this. We're up in Wisconsin and guess who forgot to pack her copy of this book?! If I could get it on my Kindle, I would, but it's not available. I'm very sad... (NT) -- E, 08:12:12 02/08/10 Mon
  • Oh that's too bad, E. (NT) -- celtgirl, 12:31:30 02/08/10 Mon
• Often on a reread I feel more sympathy for the less likeable characters as things will be revealed later to explain many of their foilbes. I do think Felix is sorry for what happened to Claes, but is just so dang self absorbed and immature in a time when many his age where hard at work. I can't help but wonder with Mariam being so perceptive about most things, lets her kids go so wrong. Is it just that blind spot moms tend to have toward their own? As for Kateline, the line that really stuck out to me this time- how she was so ready to give Simon another chance until he "frowned" at her. It seems quite a bit of her high falutin act of concern for Claes really came from that moment when her vanity and her chances were spurned. When you see how her father not only defends her but also reassures her, you realize this girl is pretty lucky and independent, after all, for her time. (NT) -- susiej, 11:17:33 02/08/10 Mon
  • I think Felix is in many ways normal for his age and his status- and teenagers of all eras become a whole other creature around the age Felix is at, I speak from experience. Felix will soon have to settle down and learn how to run the company, so I think Marian is wise to let him have his time to sow his oats, etc. He can be really irritating, but so can most young men his age- they think they know all, see all, etc. But he has good qualities and they are under cultivation. As to Katelina, I think it was partly her rebuff from Simon that caused her to check on Claes, but also she is attracted to him, just probably having a hard time admitting that to herself being that he's of a much lower social station than he is. (NT) -- celtgirl, 12:06:07 02/08/10 Mon
    • Susie one quick thing, but I'll take it inside as it's very spoilerish in nature>>> -- celtgirl, 12:12:26 02/08/10 Mon
• I just wanted to refer back to the last chapter for a minute. The scene where Tobie witnesses Claes crying always breaks my heart and of course, if you've already read the whole book, you understand the significance of his tears, if not, it's something to remember for later. These lines are just heartwrenching: Till he was sure, Tobie stood watching. Then he retreated with care. The voice the boy needed was not that of a doctor. The voice he needed didn't exist. (NT) -- celtgirl, 12:10:23 02/08/10 Mon
  • This is about the time I started to fall in love with Claes, iirc from the first read-through. (NT) -- E, 13:23:29 02/08/10 Mon
  • Meant to add that I'm not always happy with Tobie, but I like him, for the most part, throughout the entire series. (NT) -- E, 13:25:39 02/08/10 Mon
    • There are a few times in the series that I admit to a very strong desire to choke the good doctor. Mostly, though, like you I enjoy his character and appreciate that he looks out for Claes. (NT) -- celtgirl, 13:36:46 02/08/10 Mon
  • Yep, I'm not sure I caught that he was crying. If I did, it didn't seem as significant. Now, it breaks my heart>>>>>>spoiler -- susiej, 18:25:56 02/08/10 Mon
• The words, I put myself in the marketplace. I think refers to the fact that both he and Marian must now admit that his horizons are expanding, that he has put himself out there just enough, shown enough of who he is, that it's inevitable that offers will start to show up- he's literally put himself out there to see what comes back. (NT) -- celtgirl, 12:19:12 02/08/10 Mon
  • I realize this isn't really one of those intergenerational links between Claes and Lymond, but I could not help but think of Lymond telling Oonagh that his bed 'is not a marketplace,' or wtte when first reading this. (NT) -- E, 13:25:01 02/08/10 Mon
    • I just found another one of those 'intergenerational links' while reading yesterday. I missed so many on my first read, and now they seem obvious. (NT) -- celtgirl, 17:09:49 02/08/10 Mon
• Considering that she admits to herself that she's attracted to Simon, and is reconsidering him as marriage material she does quite an about face as she goes on the attack with him very quickly- from one small frown. No, not surprised by her behaviour, because Dunnett writes very few sympathetic female characters, Philippa being an exception and sometimes Sybilla, but Katelina is a prickly pear. (NT) -- celtgirl, 12:35:52 02/08/10 Mon
  • I was going to say the same thing. Her behavior didn't surprise me and yet it did because, unless I misread, she was considering being amiable to him right before she saw him. (NT) -- Mahri, 14:25:47 02/08/10 Mon
    • She was, but I think his frown put her on the defensive. (NT) -- celtgirl, 14:29:26 02/08/10 Mon
• I seem to be incapable of rational thought at the moment, but I do agree with what has been written here already. (NT) -- Carla, 14:00:06 02/08/10 Mon
  • me neither! I'm just going to post the next chapter and read everyone's astute insights. I know I'm not getting half of what I should...but hopefully all the pieces will fall together as I go. :-) (NT) -- Lil, 21:19:50 02/08/10 Mon

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• This is my first read of this book, but this whole episode reminded me of Lymond's "Thady Boy" in Queen's Play. (oh, and I'm breathing a huge sigh of relief, somehow I had it in my head that I was leading the discussion this week, but double checked last night, whew! Thanks, Nalana) (NT) -- PeggyB, 12:07:45 02/07/10 Sun
  • That's weird, Peggy, because I thought you were too- did you say something to that effect earlier in the week? (NT) -- celtgirl, 12:11:39 02/07/10 Sun
    • I have nightmares that I'll forget to post when I have Craic or BDB discussion weeks upcoming. *g* Here's the schedule inside, just to refresh. >> -- Lil, 12:26:45 02/07/10 Sun
      • Me too, Nalana- I wrote mine down on a post-it note and put it in the book, so I know when and where to start. (NT) -- celtgirl, 12:34:50 02/07/10 Sun
        • I think I've printed that schedule THREE times, no idea where I put it after I printed it though. (NT) -- PeggyB, 13:26:42 02/07/10 Sun
    • I did! And no one disabused me of the notion, also I thought I was starting with Chapter 7, so I re-read and took notes on the plane flight home yesterday! LOL!!!!!!!! I know chapter 7 real good ;-) (NT) -- PeggyB, 13:25:37 02/07/10 Sun
      • I must have missed that post. So sorry!! (NT) -- Lil, 17:17:29 02/07/10 Sun
        • My fault, not yours, Nalana, nothing to be sorry about! (NT) -- PeggyB, 08:37:08 02/08/10 Mon
• The stab wound was most certainly inflicted by Simon, and Claes was only lucky it wasn't a fatal strike. Astorre is happy to have the fight occur, because it helps him settle his fight with Lionetto, and he sees no harm in it, not realizing how deep the animosity between Claes and Simon is already running. And no, no surprises in this interaction, but that's because I know the whole story, I don't remember my thoughts on the first read, however. (NT) -- celtgirl, 12:08:51 02/07/10 Sun
• i had assumed the stab wound was inflicted by Simon, but I don't have the knowledge of previous reading to understand the dynamics between the two of them. Simon is reminding me a lot of Lymond, his physicality, but not his moral fibre. I think Claes will continue to surprise me, which is the fun in reading DD's books. (NT) -- Denise, 13:12:34 02/07/10 Sun
• Can I just say that I really hate Simon? And the whole incident is so stunning when you realize how hideously unjust the class system was. And it was even worse outside Flanders where merchants and artisans were so crucial to the economy. It makes you understand the virulence of the peasants during the French Revolution. (NT) -- susiej, 13:38:57 02/07/10 Sun
  • This is something I really had to butt my head against while watching 'The Tudors'- the way many of the nobility hated Thomas Cromwell simply because he wasn't a noble and sought to destroy him because of it. (NT) -- celtgirl, 22:01:33 02/07/10 Sun
• I didn't think this on my first read-through, but in hindsight (this is a bit spoilerish, so come inside) >>> -- Carla, 15:25:27 02/07/10 Sun
  • Carla>>>> -- celtgirl, 22:03:01 02/07/10 Sun
    • I felt Astorre did this on at least one or two future occasions as well. That's one thing about the people who surround Claes, even the ones he's closest to - they are almost never 100% certain they know the real Claes. (NT) -- E, 13:28:51 02/08/10 Mon
      • Which is exactly what Claes wants them to feel. :) I also think this is why it's so beautiful when his masks do come off, much later. (NT) -- celtgirl, 13:34:30 02/08/10 Mon
        • Yes, yes, yes, you are so right! (NT) -- E, 18:54:44 02/08/10 Mon
• Simon inflicted the stab wound and with the intent to kill, IMHO. The man is an ass and that's insulting donkeys every where. (NT) -- Carla, 15:26:26 02/07/10 Sun
  • Haha!! A true insult to donkeys! (NT) -- Lil, 17:21:47 02/07/10 Sun

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• I know Claes dropped the cup on purpose, but even after three reads, I don't know why really, unless it was to provoke further fighting. The first time I read 'Niccolo Rising' I felt like the first half of the book moved slowly, now I find it seems to go faster each time, maybe looking backwards gives it all a different feel and pacing. I just finished it today, actually and already opened up 'Spring of the Ram'. That's the problem with these books of DD's, I can never stop at one. (NT) -- celtgirl, 16:20:20 02/06/10 Sat
  • I wondered if it was to cause a deeper rift between Lionetto and the Charetty men...didn't Julius tell Claes to tell Lionetto to get something else to court Marian? That's the only reason I can find on my first read through of the chapter and only to chapter 18 in the book. (NT) -- Lil, 16:39:00 02/06/10 Sat
  • I had no doubt that Claes dropped it on purpose. What was interesting to me was that he basically pushed Felix aside in order to feign catching it in the first place. It seems to me (on this initial reading) that Claes' role in the de Chattery household is to prevent Felix from getting in too much trouble. (NT) -- PeggyB, 23:10:56 02/06/10 Sat
• I was wondering when Niccolo was going to show up. *g* (NT) -- Lil, 16:40:48 02/06/10 Sat
• We were talking, below, about our mental image of Claes. I *knew* I saved this picture (thank you, Carla!). Sure wish I knew this fellow's real name, though. >>> -- E, 21:34:26 02/06/10 Sat
  • Well, to that, all I can add is this quote from pp.90-91 in the Penguin edition ..."...exposing his muscular chest and the upper selvedge of that silky dun-coloured thatch with which Nature, as Julius had envious cause to know, had endowed his virility." *ahem* (NT) -- PeggyB (), 23:15:25 02/06/10 Sat
  • His name is Alexandre Despatie and he is a Canadian diver. He is a good representation of Nicholas, although I see Nicholas as being taller but with the same build and facial type. (NT) -- Carla, 08:31:16 02/07/10 Sun

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• on the first question - I get the impression that Claes is just accepting of everything. He has that "it is what it is" attitude to the full extreme and almost acts as if he has no control over anything so why bother caring. I'm really struggling with his character because I can't relate to not having any feeling about things that you work hard on being destroyed and everyone just walking all over me. Maybe he gets joy out of the process of making, doing and doesn't have any connection to the end result because he perceives none of it is really his? His life and possessions are not his own? *sorry to answer questions with more questions. :-)* (NT) -- Lil, 18:51:38 02/05/10 Fri
• I don't know about their relationship or what I might learn in future but I definitely picked up on the way Marian was much more accepting/laid back/easy with Claes vs the others. (NT) -- Mahri, 19:25:23 02/05/10 Fri
• I'm going inside to answer, as I'm finding it kind of difficult to answer the questions without spoilers>>>> -- celtgirl, 20:05:09 02/05/10 Fri
• As I got to know Claes more, I realized that he *had* to make those little baubles and toys. His fertile and creative mind requires that sort of outlet. He is a puzzle-solver. Don't be fooled by his clownish ways; there is much more than meets the eye. As to others breaking his creations, I think this relates very well to how others have broken his heart but not his spirit. He goes on, moves forward, has a vision and plays everything very close to his chest. (NT) -- E, 20:52:59 02/05/10 Fri
  • That's a very good point, E. He needs to make them, he has no need to keep them. (NT) -- celtgirl, 21:32:34 02/05/10 Fri
• I find the relationship between Claes and Marian intriguing. It doesn't seem a typical employer/employee relationship, at least not the one initially protrayed. I feel he might be a corporate spy or something mysterious like that. They talk more like equals than a 17 year old apprentice and his boss. As per usual, the writing is very interesting! (NT) -- Denise, 22:04:46 02/05/10 Fri
  • I got that same impression, that he was the unseemly covert operative. No one would think twice of him being privy to certain info but he does see and her quite a bit. (NT) -- CindyS, 11:06:20 02/06/10 Sat
• When I read the interacttion between Claes and Marian, it occured to me that Dunnett has likely pulled another one past me and I should be paying more attention to "Claes" from this point forward. Regarding Julius, I find myself wondering if he had considered making a play for the widow himself. (NT) -- PeggyB, 08:56:02 02/06/10 Sat
• This is totally off-topic (I'm so bad about doing that, sorry), but I love the fact that my beloved Claes is involved in the art of dyeing fabric. Once upon a time, when I actually *had* time, I used to dye fiber, and of course the most necessary part of the process is the mordant that sets the dye - alum, a substance I happen to have on hand right now in my copper dyer's pot downstairs. Okay, I know this is a very weird comment, but I think it's kind of cool when little things come together, things that make sense to me in a personal way when reading novels. (NT) -- E, 09:16:17 02/06/10 Sat
  • It is very cool when little bits of a book reflect little bits of our daily lives. Especially cool in this case given the hundreds of years that separate our time from that of Claes et al. (NT) -- Carla, 11:12:12 02/06/10 Sat
    • Yes, that's exactly what it is. To think that after hundreds of years, alum is still a great mordant, and here it will soon play a pivotal role in this book. (NT) -- E, 16:18:04 02/06/10 Sat
    • I think because, essentially and despite technology, we don't really change as human beings- certain things will always attract our attention- any sort of art is one of them. There is something so tactilely wonderful about fabric and everything that goes into making the various beautiful colours and patterns. I spent an hour on a website about ground pigments for oil painters who wish to mix their own colours the other day, just looking at them was a feast. (NT) -- celtgirl, 16:22:43 02/06/10 Sat
      • Ooh, yes, this is just how I feel. Sometimes technology only serves to complicate the beautiful basics in our lives. Fabric and fiber - some of us are so attracted by those things, and who knows why. And then there's color. To think of all the simple, natural agents that literally cause color to explode into our world (red from the female cochineal? who'd ever believe it?). You know, it's almost like dark chocolate, rich and intoxicating! (NT) -- E, 21:23:50 02/06/10 Sat
• I feel Claes and Marian have a genuine trust and respect for each other. Few others grant that to Claes, and Marian welcomes it from him. She feels comfortable with him, seems to recognize that he is not trying to usurp her. I think there is a natural affection between the two, something that goes beyond a foster-mother/son relationship. (NT) -- E, 09:21:59 02/06/10 Sat
• That Julius, always a day late and florin short. (NT) -- E, 09:30:10 02/06/10 Sat
  • LOL!!! (NT) -- PeggyB, 10:20:28 02/06/10 Sat
• 1)Expendable, he's just a servant afterall and he can make more toys right? Well that's the impression I get regarding the attitudes of the wealthy at the time. As for Claes there must be a need to create, to produce something that is solely yours that you can take pride in. What others do with it is irrelavant, its the creative outlet that matters. 2)Julius - I think he's got his sights on the widow for a wife that way he can then be the man in charge. He is rather career driven afterall. (NT) -- CindyS, 11:21:41 02/06/10 Sat
  • Glad to see you posting so soon after surgery, Cindy! Hope you're having a good day. (NT) -- E, 16:19:27 02/06/10 Sat
• I think that they break his hand made toys shows that they feel him inferior and expect that anything he does isn't "worthy" to keep precious. He's a servant in their eyes and nothing he produces is valuable…or art. (NT) -- Lynne, 19:36:12 02/06/10 Sat
  • Very good point, Lynne. (NT) -- E, 21:24:50 02/06/10 Sat

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• I just want to say I'm so glad to have this discussion going on during my first read. From some of the comments so far it's obvious to me that I'm not going to understand a whole heck of alot about what's going on until later, just like with Lymond, so I really can't add much to the discussion. I will say that I've had my eye on Claes only because I've seen other discussions on the Lymond board regarding the Niccolo series *g* Right now though, not knowing the rest of the story, he seems childlike, you know simple, happy go lucky, no worries...that sort of thing. (NT) -- Mahri (), 14:41:44 02/05/10 Fri
• I think it was Nicholas' idea and that he must have figured out how to do it, but it was Felix that actually went ahead with the plan. (NT) -- celtgirl, 16:52:33 02/05/10 Fri
  • OK, I didn't realize that Nicholas=Claes! I don't think we know that in the story so far, or did I miss something? I agree about Claes being the mastermind behind the watery mishap with Felix jsut happy to cause trouble. (NT) -- Denise, 18:32:40 02/05/10 Fri
    • Sorry, Denise, I just assumed, I think, that people understood that at this point in the story, I didn't mean to spoil anything for you, so I apologize for that. (NT) -- celtgirl, 18:40:24 02/05/10 Fri
      • Not a biggie, but I wondered if I missed this. I read the first 7 chapters last week, and this week I'm working towards finishing SKP's The Reckoning. The two books are too similar, rich in historical detail, and my sporadic bouts of reading don't assist my memory! (NT) -- Denise, 22:12:01 02/05/10 Fri
        • In the edition that I have it actually says on the back cover "Nicholas Vander Poele of Bruges, the good-natured dyer's apprentice" so while Dunnett doesn't spell it out in the first 7 chapters, the cover copy doesn't keep it a secret :) (NT) -- Carla, 07:30:36 02/06/10 Sat
• One thing I wanted to comment on while we are just getting acquainted with Nicholas is this- I have always found some of DD's descriptions of Nicholas a bit odd- she makes it clear he's well built and very attractive to the ladies, but then will go on to describe his eyes like saucers, or that he resembles people of low intelligence- and the caterpillar lips thing I hate, caterpillar lips are not attractive. Then recently I read that she herself said she never had a clear image of Nicholas- so suddenly all these descriptions made more sense. I have my own very clear mental image of Claes thank heavens, but there are some of her descriptions that make me think she was almost trying to make him sound like he looked a bit freakish. (NT) -- celtgirl, 17:04:51 02/05/10 Fri
  • thank you saying this...I was confused as to what he looks like (still am I guess) and can't decide if the description by others is based off their dislike for certain traits rather than his attractiveness to the female half of the world. I imagine him tall, blonde, nicely built with big eyes, but nothing like saucers. But I'm only to chapter 18 so I'm still forming my picture in my head. (NT) -- Lil, 17:29:44 02/05/10 Fri
    • Oh there's certainly some jealousy coming from the other males in the story, which makes their opinions of him rather skewed I think- I think his sexual charisma must be quite large, rather like a certain Irish actor. :) (NT) -- celtgirl (), 17:32:21 02/05/10 Fri
• Lest anyone wonder what I mean by caterpillar lips, here's an illustration. . I see Nicholas with a mobile mouth, but not caterpillar lips. (NT) -- celtgirl, 17:24:41 02/05/10 Fri
  • How did you find this photo? Google "caterpillar lips"? LOL (NT) -- Carla, 18:20:58 02/05/10 Fri
    • He's a British actor whose lips have always given me the willies, this photo doesn't actually do full justice to them. (NT) -- celtgirl, 18:39:15 02/05/10 Fri
      • My idea of Claes is a picture that Carla posted a couple of years ago of an Olympic diver or swimmer from Canada. Cannot recall his name, although I might have his picture here somewhere (I remember saving it). He had a very well-defined body, and a handsome but not gorgeous face. The ordinary-ness of his hair and his dimples shouted, 'Claes' to me and since then that's how I picture him. (NT) -- E, 20:56:21 02/05/10 Fri
        • I picture Claes with a wide mouth, big dimples, sun tanned skin and light brown curly mop-ish hair. I can't think of anyone famous that resembles him. And "yuck" to the caterpillar lips! (NT) -- Lynne, 19:24:58 02/06/10 Sat

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• I figured you must be at a birth! How'd you manage with Ron away? Congrats on a healthy mom and baby girl. (NT) -- celtgirl, 18:34:40 02/04/10 Thu
• I bet your exhausted! Thanks for posting anyway. Glad to hear mom and daughter are well. I've missed the last couple of days of discussion, but at this point I still didn't get Claes. He's nice enough, but doesn't seem very cunning. I mean, you got away, why let yourself get caught? Of course, I'm a few chapters farther along and see him differently now, but at the time I was starting to wonder if I'd even picked up the right book? *g* (NT) -- Lil, 19:07:21 02/04/10 Thu
• You must be worn out, Carla. Glad it went well. Ah, that Claes. At this point on my first reading, I figured Claes was pretty much just a clown. Now I know he does almost nothing without a reason. (NT) -- E, 20:19:07 02/04/10 Thu
  • Now, that I know DD's writing style, I am very suspect of Claes behaviour! The insights in the previous chapters to a young man who is much more than he seems has me waiting for the other shoe to drop at any time. If I excluded previous knowledge, I would think that a beating means little to him, and the 'lark' of it all is more important to Claes. (NT) -- Denise, 07:16:08 02/05/10 Fri
    • I agree with Denise, prior to getting further in the book (albeit not much further) I just figured Claes was apparently pretty used to the consequences of his actions...or perhaps he didn't want the "dog slayers" to be punished for his actions. And regarding the dogslayers, can I just say ugh? what an awful profession, killing stray dogs for their fur and fat, **shudder** (NT) -- PeggyB, 08:57:03 02/05/10 Fri
• Can I add here that after these two chapters, I think Simon is a despicable cad. At this point, I'm hoping he has a pretty miserable existence in this book/series. Boo, hiss! (NT) -- PeggyB, 08:59:06 02/05/10 Fri
• I think partly he didn't leave because he is forcing things between he and Simon- it's hard to say much more without giving away major spoilers, but there are very complicated psychological reasons for what Claes does at this point in the story. (NT) -- celtgirl, 09:07:18 02/05/10 Fri
• I'm trying to look back and remember how I felt on my first read of Claes. As I've said, I had to come to the boards and ask Which one is Niccolo? Dunnett is the master of surprise. What I saw in this scene was Claes maybe wanting the chance to rub it in Simon's face- to see Simon's face as he stands covered in filth with his fine dog dead, publically outwitted by that silly apprentice. After all, Claes did warn Kateline from Simon- so we can't say Claes is totally OK with the way of his world, the most desirable girl goes with the richest guy. And the thing about the beatings is that by taking his punishment, no one holds Claes' antics against him. It's all just a good joke, fun sport as long as he doesn't get uppity or seem malicious. (NT) -- susiej, 10:19:10 02/05/10 Fri

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• I think Simon really repulsed her with how inept and crass he was when he tried to kiss her. She needs a man who can awaken her with some subtlety and he is not the man for that. On the second question, if I'm tired and trying to read it, the political detail can get hard to follow, but I don't question it really. I feel she was painting an entire canvas, showing us this huge sweep of Europe at that time, so that we have a sense that their world was just as big as ours, just in a very different way. It was an exciting time- with the Renaissance the entire world as they knew it was opening up and even a dyeshop apprentice might make his way in the world. :) (NT) -- celtgirl (), 23:12:01 02/02/10 Tue
• Frist, I love the photo of Bruges. I was there over 20 years ago and loved it. It's one of the best perserved Medieval Cities in europe. And second....how old is Simon? Katelina is rather young...though in those times, maybe not so much. (NT) -- Lynne, 05:33:31 02/03/10 Wed
  • I think Simon is probably in his mid-30s. Considering her father was willing to marry her off to someone far older, Simon is definitely within age range. (NT) -- celtgirl, 08:02:32 02/03/10 Wed
• Even though I have total trust in Dunnett's depictions of political history, I don't focus on it. It's there, in the back of my mind, and as the story moves along I can connect the dots. The amazing thing to me is how Dunnett deposits her characters into the midst of those political events and gives them a pivotal role as some events unfold! Politics are important, but to me they're more of a side story until one of the main characters is directly involved. Ah, the beautiful Katelina - at this point in the story, I really liked her, felt that I understood her. Love that photo, Carla. It's a dream of ours to visit Bruges sometime, maybe in connection with a tour of the Netherlands. (A total off-topic here. Belgium has been very forward-thinking in how they care for their disabled citizens. Very innovative, kind and understanding of their needs. Belgium serves as a model to other countries on ways to avoid hiding away the retarded and disabled.) (NT) -- E, 07:01:16 02/03/10 Wed
  • I agree with Elaine. I like history in a story. It adds depth and conflict for the characters. I read for the characters; the history is background setting. I pay as much attention to it as I do any description. As for Katelina, I think, she vented onto Simon all her frustration. She's a willful, sensual young woman who chaffes at the social constraints of her day. Her class position gives her a luxurous daily life, but the servants who serve her have more choice about some rather important things. Compare her situation to Mabelie- who did Mabelie choose to spend her night with- the rich and handsome lord or the lovable apprentice? The thing is Mabelie could choose, could get caught and merely laughed at for getting caught. Kateline doesn't want to leave Bruges. Certainly doesn't want to live in cold, gray Edinburgh. So she insures the Scottish lord, who seems to get to do whatever he wants, won't be asking again. (NT) -- susiej, 07:19:30 02/03/10 Wed
    • You make a valid point about the increase in Mabelie's choices, particulary in bedmates. A high society female had a lot of constraints in what and with whom she could do many activities that we take for granted. I wouldn't have fared well under those restrictions, but then if I had grown up knowing my place in society, I may have followed the set path, not feeling that I had a choice anyway. Thank goodness, that is not my lot in life! (NT) -- Denise, 09:49:33 02/03/10 Wed
• I enjoy the historical details in a novel, they add a rich backdrop to the characters which are my main interest. If the details seem to bog down the story, I try to understand on a superficial level and move on. My interest has always been for character-driven novels, with an interesting setting. As far as Katelina's reaction to Simon's blundering attempts to woo, I was surprised. She could do far worse than a handsome, cultured man of a reasonably similar age. But then she's willful, and wants what she wants. I guess. (NT) -- Denise, 09:59:02 02/03/10 Wed
• Susie makes a good point about choices. I think K is rather frstrated with her choices currently and would rather be willful and have some contol of a situation than be a lap dog. Simon, I think he's too full of himself and needed a dressing down. Hopefully it'll build some character an maybe respect for women. As for the politics - like mentioned above I think it builds the story and the characters. (NT) -- CindyS, 17:17:38 02/03/10 Wed

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• Where Dunnett is concerned, I think it's best to remember as much as possible!! I haven't read the whole book yet, but yeah, I started paying more attention to Claes as a character in this chapter. (NT) -- PeggyB, 07:41:39 02/01/10 Mon
• LOL! Not sure how to answer that last question. I sure WISH I could remember it all as I read it, Its so nice in my reread to say smugly, "Oh, uh huh, I get it now." On my first read, I just move along enjoying the surface tale. I know this is Dunnett and everything's there for a reason, but it is also just such a good tale that I simply run with it lke a little happy dog out for a walk with the Alpha. I've had friends get so aggravated that they only get 50 % of what is said, and for some reason, it just doesn't bother me. I enjoy the details and history, the vivid descriptions but I focus on what is happening to Claes, Who will he sleep with next? What's going on with that Katelina? What will she do? (NT) -- susiej, 07:47:02 02/01/10 Mon
• One takes nothing for granted with DD! Yes, my opinion of Claes changed, he's obviously got more going for him than some overactive gonads! His knowledge of languages and ability to assess situations astutely indicates something more than a lowly apprentice. How has he come by these skills? Is there something from his earlier years to be revealed, or is he a bit of a savant and picks up languages with ease? I'm reading this for my first time, and only a chapter at a time, so it's all new to me. On the other hand, Julius appeared less interesting and intelligent, and I'm still wondering about Felix. (NT) -- Denise, 08:32:07 02/01/10 Mon
• I think you can only remember so much with Dunnett- so I tend to pick up something new with each re-read, which is the beauty of a multi-layered story. But I don't want to get so bogged down in the details that I am not going along with the fun of the story. (NT) -- celtgirl, 11:36:51 02/01/10 Mon

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• I have to admit that I was confused about them floating in a bath on the river. I was trying to visualize it and had a hard time doing so and understanding why they were doing it. *g* Luckily I figured it out. haha! There were definitely echo's of Lymond in Simon's description - fair of face/hair and well dressed. And someone who "had never had a refusal." *g* (NT) -- Lil, 12:00:23 01/31/10 Sun
  • I was visualizing the trio lounging in my hot tub,while floating along the river. Maybe not accurate, but made a nice picture. (NT) -- Denise, 12:46:51 01/31/10 Sun
• I just read this chapter this morning, and was thinking that though it's my third time through this book, I need to really understand the mechanics of a lock better in order to 'see' that scene more accurately in my head. Yes, echoes of Lymond, but Simon just seems like a paper cutout in comparison too. Lymond would have been in the bath with the others. (NT) -- celtgirl, 12:39:45 01/31/10 Sun
  • The last two times I have visited Seattle, Peggy and I (and with Morgan and Mike last summer) spent a few hours at the Chittenden Locks so I understand the mechanics of new locks, and I imagine the principle was similar even then. It was rather fascinating! (NT) -- Denise, 12:50:46 01/31/10 Sun
  • Here's a link to the wiki article on Locks, Cindy. CLICK HERE. Here's a diagram from Australia, showing a vessel moving downstream:
    (NT) -- PeggyB, 17:04:21 01/31/10 Sun
• I've only read the chapter once, but it seemed to me that Simon was a self-important dandy. I'm interested to see how the character progresses. (NT) -- Denise, 12:52:53 01/31/10 Sun
  • Can the description of Simon (physically) be any more like Lymond? There's even a lot of talk of his fine legs. That always bothers me so much because well, because I adore Lymond so much. (NT) -- susiej, 13:18:09 01/31/10 Sun
    • In all honesty I don't see Simon and Lymond as looking that similar beyond colouring- there is such a difference in attitude that I think they simply don't compare to one another, even when he's at this worst, Lymond has depth, Simon seems petulant and shallow from the get go. (NT) -- celtgirl, 13:41:20 01/31/10 Sun
      • oh, i agree but the constant reference to his golden hair, blue eyes, face of an angel. fine scultped body- it screams Lymond outwardly and that's why it rankles me. (NT) -- susiej, 16:19:19 01/31/10 Sun
        • The physical characteristics were so similar, but because I didn't care for Simon, I didn't link him to Lymond at all on my first read. Maybe I should have. After all, there sure were plenty of times when I wasn't terribly fond of Lymond! (NT) -- E, 19:17:07 01/31/10 Sun
• Just picturing these 3 lads barely sobe lounging in a tub sailing up river had me laughing. And the image of this stiff uppity group on shore watching them. Talk about neative first impressions. I'm still not sure if Cleas purposely ran into the outbound ship sinking the cannon. How could he have known what was on there? (NT) -- CindyS, 14:12:08 01/31/10 Sun
  • yes, indeed how could a simple apprentice with nothing but girls on his mind have known, and then, he speaks perfect Italian to the Florentine?? (I have the benefit of this being my second read, you know, so things stand out a bit more.) (NT) -- susiej, 16:21:01 01/31/10 Sun
    • I'm having to ask my questions carefully because this is my second time through, as well :) (NT) -- Carla, 16:36:37 01/31/10 Sun
      • I'm having to really think out my answers beforehand too, because there's much I would like to say, but definitely cannot right now. (NT) -- celtgirl, 16:43:47 01/31/10 Sun
  • The question of whether Claes (with a long "a") had anything to do with the sinking of the cannon, echoes thru the next several chapters. (NT) -- FranS, 17:40:35 01/31/10 Sun
    • I think it's pronounced more like Klahs. (NT) -- E, 19:13:14 01/31/10 Sun
• I agree with those who thought of Lymond when Simon was described, did Dunnett do that as an inside joke for the readers of Lymond? (NT) -- PeggyB, 17:06:18 01/31/10 Sun
  • No, there's a reason for it. (NT) -- celtgirl, 17:12:34 01/31/10 Sun
• This comment was posted on the Claes Yahoo Group, "Of all the things in this chapter, I especially admire the parallel>>>>>>> -- FranS, 17:48:54 01/31/10 Sun
  • Fran- this is a tiny bit SPOILERish in nature, so I'll take it inside>>> -- celtgirl, 22:10:28 01/31/10 Sun
• What do you think of Julius here? (NT) -- FranS, 17:53:43 01/31/10 Sun
  • I think the first time I read it, I liked Julius quite well, though it was obvious he didn't have a great deal of insight into other people even though he obviously thinks he does. (NT) -- celtgirl, 18:05:57 01/31/10 Sun
  • To be honest, I was immediately hooked on Claes and didn't really give a lot of thought to Julius on my first read. (NT) -- E, 19:19:43 01/31/10 Sun
    • I couldn't decide which character was the main one and thought it might be Julius. She seemed to make a point of mentioning that he wasn't much interested in females and that Claes was very successful with them. (NT) -- FranS, 20:24:34 01/31/10 Sun
      • I was the same way Fran. I even had to come on the board and ask- uh, which one is Niccolo? (NT) -- susiej, 07:40:31 02/01/10 Mon
  • I thought he seemed an interesting choice to try and control these two young, willful men. He's too close to them in age, IMHO and just as likely to get into trouble as they are. I thought they were a trio of typical young men, to be honest, more interested in drinking, hunting and women than anything else. (NT) -- Carla, 05:29:12 02/01/10 Mon

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• I love seeing the variations of the covers. I have two of them in my "collection". (NT) -- Lynne, 07:28:14 01/28/10 Thu
•   I have this Penguin Books paperback, courtesy of Denise and her library's book sale. I too enjoy looking at all of the different cover art! that top right cover looks familiar, did Vintage use the same picture on one of the Lymond books? I'm at work, can't check right now. Probably just looks similar. (NT) -- PeggyB, 16:16:39 01/28/10 Thu
  • I have that one too, Peggy and the top righthand one too. (NT) -- celtgirl, 17:13:06 01/28/10 Thu
    • I have it in the top right cover (NT) -- Tracy, 19:24:19 01/28/10 Thu
      • Me too - all my Lymond books are of that style so I wanted them to match :-) (NT) -- Mahri, 07:40:06 01/30/10 Sat
        • OH I also have that bottom right one from Denise - I should've checked my bookshelves before ordering...crap! (NT) -- Mahri, 08:10:18 01/30/10 Sat
  • Oh, I like that cover...it looks purple? Or is it dark blue...pretty either way. (NT) -- Lil, 21:02:09 01/28/10 Thu
    • Purple! I'm guessing astrology is a big factor in this book, given it's mentioned multiple times in the first few pages and this cover has a ring of zodiac signs? I'm going to be playing catch up again. (NT) -- PeggyB, 14:11:15 01/29/10 Fri
      • Not really, Peggy- but all the books in the Niccolo series are named for the zodiac, it becomes more important later- the theme of your fate in the stars etc. (NT) -- celtgirl, 15:20:35 01/29/10 Fri
• Question: is this the beginning of the series? Is this series as hard to read/get into as her other series? I have all the books in the other series and for the life of me I can't remember the name!! Cripes... (NT) -- Noelle, 21:34:27 01/29/10 Fri
  • Ah ha....I just looked above!! Lymond!! (NT) -- Noelle, 21:37:35 01/29/10 Fri
  • Niccolo Rising is the first book in this series and though I'm only a few chapters in, I do think it's a wee bit easier. I don't know if that's because I managed to get through all the Lymond books so have a feel for the way she writes or what. (NT) -- Mahri, 07:39:06 01/30/10 Sat
    • Her writing style is definitely easier to read in this series, as it was by the end of the Lymond series. These are still complex books, but her writing is more "accessible" for lack of a better word. (NT) -- Carla, 08:32:19 01/30/10 Sat
      • Yes, that's it - 'accessible' is the perfect word to describe the writing in the Niccolo series. (NT) -- E, 14:13:11 01/30/10 Sat
        • Same word (accessible) I used in a previous thread. Great minds think alike! (NT) -- Denise, 16:42:33 01/30/10 Sat
          • Yes! This series is very understandable from the very first book forward. I hope this will entice others to give it a try. (NT) -- E, 06:12:20 01/31/10 Sun
  • I'm just a few chapters into Niccolo Rising, but find it much easier to follow compared to The Game of Kings. I was puzzled from the start with that series, though it did ease up with the later books. Give it a try, Noelle! (NT) -- Denise, 08:45:49 01/30/10 Sat
    • I've got to give a look see to see if they are available on the Kindle. I'm going to try to stick with books on the Kindle. I think it might be a hard thing to do because I do love books so much and their beautiful covers. (NT) -- Noelle, 12:28:25 01/30/10 Sat
      • Just looked and it's not available on the Kindle. The only Dunnett book availabe on the Kindle is a companion book for Lymond. (NT) -- Noelle, 13:21:00 01/30/10 Sat
• I have the UK version in the top left hand corner. I like my books to match as well and was really bummed that I couldn't find one of the middle books in the series in this version. (NT) -- Carla, 11:57:20 01/30/10 Sat