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Date Posted: 14:39:42 07/17/08 Thu
Author: Michael
Subject: Re: Spiritual Awakening
In reply to: iteo 's message, "Re: Spiritual Awakening" on 12:39:14 07/17/08 Thu

Interesting. As to seeking enlightenment being as hinderence, Babaji certainly says that, BUT you have to give up even that high desire near the end in order to achieve enlightenment. Before that stage you need that, or something as strong to keep you practicing.

Meditation is only part of it. The other part is to be 'mindful' the rest of the time.



>>My final thought on it is, what else to do? If you
>>dont do this practice and gain enlightenment, then
>>what? Stuck in this world for ever?
>
>I know exactly what you mean - i guess i have read so
>many stories of zen monks meditating for a lifetime
>with no results that it almost seems that meditation
>is not a very effective means - BUT, i really don't
>know and i still contemplate returning to meditation
>
>u.g. said (and I am certain that he is right) that one
>must be absolutely helpless to find it
>
>“It is clear to me that to find out for yourself you
>must be absolutely helpless with nowhere to turn.“ —
>u.g.
>
>So playing devil's advocate, perhaps, by the mere fact
>that one is meditating in order to make something
>happen, one is hampering their own progress — from all
>of the zen masters and yogis I've read of, one cannot
>*will* enlightenment into being - it can only be a
>spontaneous experience.
>
>u.g. also said he had no idea why it happens to some
>and not others, but he felt that his lifetime of
>meditation and studying was a hindrance.
>
>Tho on that point I would probably disagree with u.g.
>- I kind of think that his studying and meditation may
>have helped to *prime* him - but once the priming is
>done, enlightenment may only come when one gives up -
>so perhaps one should abandon the practices at some
>point lest they become another form of attachment
>
>I also read a story of a Zen monk who diligently
>practiced for 25 years, but finally gave up and left
>the monestary and immediately sought out a prostitute,
>and that evening he achieved enlightenment during
>orgasm. Sounds a bit funny perhaps, but based on
>tantric practices, etc., I can believe that story.
>
>and Zen masters will tell you that if you see the
>Buddha walking down the street, you must kill him.
>
>On that note, here's a favorite quote of mine:
>
>“...The more you see Buddhahood, the more you lose it.
>If you employ Buddha to seek Buddha, if you try to
>grasp mind by mind, you will never succeed all your
>life. You do not realize that if you cease thought and
>forget cognition, Buddha will spontaneously appear…
>
>“Just recognize the original mind in perception and
>cognition… don’t produce views and opinions on top of
>perceptions and cognitions, don’t stir thoughts on
>perceptions and cognitions, don’t seek mind outside
>perception and cognition, don’t abandon perception and
>cognition, to grasp truth. Not identifying, not
>rejecting, not dwelling, not sticking, you will be
>free in all ways, and everywhere is the site of
>enlightenment.”
>
>— Huangbo (Obaku) Tang dynasty (618-906)
>
>so in some ways this is pro-meditation, but it can
>also be used to argue against it
>
>I guess my "method" at this moment (may change
>tomorrow!) is to exhaust the intellect (which I've
>read is a valid method, but also a longer path) and
>also to pray to God for assistance.

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