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Date Posted: 20:01:40 01/30/09 Fri
Author: JennyJenkins: hoping we have a discussion
Subject: Another querry-about that multiple birth, the ethics...
I'm wondering if the fertility clinic was treating that woman as an human experiment. IMO it was unethical to place so many embryos in her womb...
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Re: Another querry-about that multiple birth, the ethics... -- niki, 11:16:30 02/01/09 Sun [1]
I don't know the details, but I thing they normally place quite a few, it's just that usually only 1-2 take.
Most of those clinics also rec'd "selective reduction" if too many take.
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Re: Another querry-about that multiple birth, the ethics... -- JosieJ, 21:18:25 02/01/09 Sun [1]
Well, from the bits and pieces I've heard, the DID recommend selective reduction and the mother refused. A couple of other items, the grandmother filed for bankruptcy in 2008 and has stated that her daughter is "obsessed" with having kids.
Those poor kids were NOT born into a healthy environment.
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There is something weird about this whole thing -- Jeannine, 12:25:09 02/01/09 Sun [1]
first off, I think it is none of my business what this woman does..... BUT..... yeah, I know they implant more than one but how in the world would 8 make it? and she already has 6 kids! Aren't there some sort of ethics in this business? And she lives with her parents???? Something is very wacky.
Holy Moly! I can't help but wonder if this woman is an attention whore of some sort. Maybe looking for fame? Sadly, if so, she is getting it. Totally strange.
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Maybe she's going for World Record for having the most children in least # of pregnancies... -- JennyJenkins, 17:02:50 02/01/09 Sun [1]
before she's 40... :-! I'm being sarcastic...
Ayway, here in Canada, even if fertility treatments are not funded by our medical care, there are ethical guidelines set by the government and the fertility clinics are subjet to all kinds of regulations.
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I agree with Jeannine and JennyJenkins.... -- scooter, 11:40:08 02/02/09 Mon [1]
there is something weird here. Why eight embryos? It sounds dangerous for the health of mother and babies. And, personally, I think 14 children is too many for a single mom, although I realize that is a personal decision. But something definitely smells fishy in this whole situation. Interesting fact: supposedly all 14 children have same father.
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I just heard a phone interview with the Mom's new publicist -- Jeannine, 13:26:56 02/02/09 Mon [1]
who would not appear or say much until he "discussed it" with the Mom. Sheppard Smith (yes, it is Fox, but they are not all wackos) interviewed him and basically cut him off - saying "you're not gonna say anything for free are you?".
They also said that two embryos is the limit??? And she already had three sets of twins!!! I gotta agree with Scooter - 14 is too many, but it is a free country. And it HAS to be dangerous for both mom and kids. Takes all kinds I guess. Just hope she doesn't get "rewarded" with bunches of publicity and free stuff.
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She seems to have some mental issues. Here is an article that sort of explains the -- LAwoman, 13:41:19 02/02/09 Mon [1]
embryo situation. I guess she had several frozen and these were the last of them. This is from Associated Press
Grandma: Octuplets mom obsessed with having kids
Associated Press Writer Raquel Maria Dillon, Associated Press Writer – Sat Jan 31, 4:32 pm ET AP –
The woman who gave birth to octuplets this week conceived all 14 of her children through in vitro fertilization, is not married and has been obsessed with having children since she was a teenager, her mother said.
Angela Suleman told The Associated Press she was not supportive when her daughter, Nadya Suleman, decided to have more embryos implanted last year.
"It can't go on any longer," she said in a phone interview Friday. "She's got six children and no husband. I was brought up the traditional way. I firmly believe in marriage. But she didn't want to get married."
Nadya Suleman, 33, gave birth Monday in nearby Bellflower. She was expected to remain in the hospital for at least a few more days, and her newborns for at least a month.
A spokeswoman at Kaiser Permanente Bellflower Medical Center said the babies were were progressing daily, with all eight breathing unassisted and being tube-fed.
While her daughter recovers, Angela Suleman is taking care of the other six children, ages 2 through 7, at the family home in Whittier, about 15 miles east of downtown Los Angeles.
She said she warned her daughter that when she gets home from the hospital, "I'm going to be gone."
Angela Suleman said her daughter always had trouble conceiving and underwent in vitro fertilization treatments because her fallopian tubes are "plugged up."
There were frozen embryos left over after her previous pregnancies and her daughter didn't want them destroyed, so she decided to have more children.
Her mother and doctors have said the woman was told she had the option to abort some of the embryos and, later, the fetuses. She refused.
Her mother said she does not believe her daughter will have any more children.
"She doesn't have any more (frozen embryos), so it's over now," she said. "It has to be."
Nadya Suleman wanted to have children since she was a teenager, "but luckily she couldn't," her mother said.
"Instead of becoming a kindergarten teacher or something, she started having them, but not the normal way," he mother said.
Her daughter's obsession with children caused Angela Suleman considerable stress, so she sought help from a psychologist, who told her to order her daughter out of the house.
"Maybe she wouldn't have had so many kids then, but she is a grown woman," Angela Suleman said. "I feel responsible and I didn't want to throw her out."
Little psychological research has been conducted on the reasons some mothers seem hooked on repeated pregnancies. David Diamond, a co-director for the Center for Reproductive Psychology in San Diego, said mothers can be drawn to repeat pregnancies for a number of reasons, with some finding the experience so satisfying they choose to become surrogates.
Diane G. Sanford, a psychologist and author specializing in women's reproductive mental health, said while she doesn't know much about Nadya Suleman's background, women that have obsessive-compulsive disorder can become fixated on different obsessions.
"Her obsession centers around children, having children and being a mother," she said. "To what degree are her esteem and identity based on being a mom and why has this from a young age been such a preoccupation of hers?"
Yolanda Garcia, 49, of Whittier, said she helped care for Nadya Suleman's autistic son three years ago.
"From what I could tell back then, she was pretty happy with herself, saying she liked having kids and she wanted 12 kids in all," Garcia told the Long Beach Press-Telegram.
"She told me that all of her kids were through in vitro, and I said 'Gosh, how can you afford that and go to school at the same time?"' she added. "And she said it's because she got paid for it."
Garcia said she did not ask for details.
Nadya Suleman holds a 2006 degree in child and adolescent development from California State University, Fullerton, and as late as last spring she was studying for a master's degree in counseling, college spokeswoman Paula Selleck told the Press-Telegram.
Her fertility doctor has not been identified. Her mother told the Los Angeles Times all the children came from the same sperm donor but she declined to identify him.
Birth certificates reviewed by The Associated Press identify a David Solomon as the father for the four oldest children. Certificates for the other children were not immediately available.
Angela Suleman told reporters Friday that doctors implanted far fewer than eight embryos but they multiplied. Experts said this could be possible since Nadya Suleman's system has likely been hyperstimulated for years with fertilization treatments and drugs.
The news that the octuplets' mother already had six children sparked an ethical debate. Some medical experts were disturbed to hear that she was offered fertility treatment, and troubled by the possibility that she was implanted with so many embryos.
"You should always shoot for one," said Dr. Marcelle Cedars, a professor and director of reproductive health at the University of California, San Francisco, Medical Center, who worried about the increased risk of potential health complications for the babies.
Others worried that she would be overwhelmed trying to raise so many children and would end up relying on public support.
"This woman could not comprehend the ramifications of having eight children of the same age at the same time," said Judith Horowitz, a Parkland, Fla.-based psychologist and author who works with couples on fertility issues. "After Pampers stops delivering the free diapers, then what?"
The eight babies — six boys and two girls — were delivered by cesarean section weighing between 1 pound, 8 ounces and 3 pounds, 4 ounces. Forty-six physicians and staff assisted in the deliveries.
___
Associated Press writers Thomas Watkins and Noaki Schwartz contributed to this report.
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Thanks for this post LA. It certainly explains a great deal. -- JennyJenkins, 20:26:11 02/02/09 Mon [1]
It tells me that the fertility clinic did not do any councelling against, even though, I'm sure that it knew that it was on a sketchy ethical ground, considering she already had six children.
I don't want to get into being judgemental about her abilities as a mother, etc. because that could be part of another discussion...
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This situation does bring up the issue of personal responsibility... -- scooter, 08:59:50 02/03/09 Tue [1]
It appears this woman is not going to be able to support fourteen children without some kind of assistance; either from her family or the government. According to reports she lives with her parents in a three-bedroom apartment so she is already dependent on them; and now she is burdening them further. How in the world will she send these kids to college? There is something pathological here. This is my opinion only.
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I don't think it is fair to imply -- niki, 14:53:32 02/03/09 Tue [1]
that you shouldn't have children unless you can afford to send them to college.
But I agree, this woman does not seem able to take care of herself let alone 14 children- at least one of whom is autistic(? I think)
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Re: I don't think it is fair to imply -- JennyJenkins, 17:03:59 02/03/09 Tue [1]
When I became pregnant with my last child, my doctor asked me if it was on purpose or by accident...and that was over 25 years ago. Anyway, we did want to have four kids originally, but I was done after the third, since I had enough.
I remember what she said during that appointment about parenting; she said that it does not take any brains to become pregnant, to nurse a baby, and to do all the labour in looking after its physical needs, but it takes lots of work to be a parent to a 14 year old rebelious teen. Since my oldest was still under 5, I had no idea what she was talking about. Well, I know now, and I'm thankful everyday, that my kids "turned out" OK, but it was a lot of hard work.
This woman knows how to be pregnant and how to give birth, but the question about her parenting skills will be answered in 5 to 10 years. I hope that the media checks up on her from time to time...She might be an inspiration, who knows?
I'm not bothered so much by the fact that she has 14 kids, what bothers me is that the fertility clinic seems to have acted unethically in this case, according to what others have said, about when a woman is given fertility treatments, and about possible multiples, etc.
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