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Date Posted: 15:54:24 09/12/08 Fri
Author: HF
Subject: Which is precisely why religion should not be a part of public education.
In reply to:
lynne
's message, "My thoughts..." on 12:51:49 09/12/08 Fri
Unless you're going to present every religion (including the belief that god/s does not exist), which just isn't feasible, you shouldn't present any. There is no place for it in PUBLIC education.
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Re: My thoughts... -- Terry, 03:04:07 09/13/08 Sat [1]
Darwinism is supported by scientific evidence. Creationism is not.
There was a time when Norsemen (Vikings) ruled the world. Their religion was every bit as "true" to them as yours is to you. Does that make their story of creationism "science"?
Nothing personal but Christianity doesn't win because "thousands" believe in it. There are more Muslims, Buddhists and Hindus in the world than Christians. If majority rules then the Christians are out voted.
I think from this day foward I will believe in Odin and his wisdome. He will be my God. All public schools that support teaching creationism will have to give equal time to my beliefs so my children are taught what I think is right. It's only fair, if you're going to teach one you'd better believe you'll have to teach the other.
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Re: My thoughts... -- lynne, 05:19:50 09/13/08 Sat [1]
Darwinism is supported by scientific evidence. Creationism is not. Actually, there is LOTS of archeological evidence that supports the Bible. And last I heard, they haven't found that missing link yet.
There was a time when Norsemen (Vikings) ruled the world. Their religion was every bit as "true" to them as yours is to you. Does that make their story of creationism "science"?
Nothing personal but Christianity doesn't win because "thousands" believe in it. There are more Muslims, Buddhists and Hindus in the world than Christians. If majority rules then the Christians are out voted.
I think from this day foward I will believe in Odin and his wisdome. He will be my God. All public schools that support teaching creationism will have to give equal time to my beliefs so my children are taught what I think is right. It's only fair, if you're going to teach one you'd better believe you'll have to teach the other.
All of this is exactly my point. You don't believe what I do; does that make my belief "mythology?" It's not about winning (although Christianity is the major religion in this country and it's 'millions'). All I was saying is that IF Creationism were to be taught in public schools, they wouldn't be able to give it a label like that. But you know, if we're going to be TOTALLY fair here, I could point out that Darwinism is one set of beliefs that a bunch of those fat white men you mentioned decided was THE ONE belief we're going to teach in public schools, without any other theories presented. That could be called brainwashing, too.
We are never going to agree on this, of course; I just got riled when you called something I hold very near and dear "MYTHOLOGY". In caps, no less. Separation of church and state is fine, especially in this melting pot of a country, and I'm sure that's not going to change no matter who gets into the White House. Even the Dems have a lot of fat white men among them, you know.
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Intelligent design -- Jeannine, 07:36:49 09/13/08 Sat [1]
How is it that the theory of intelligent design is so threatening to the left? Seriously. If I believe that there is a power, in my case - the Holy Trinity - greater than myself, in Terry's case, Odin, that created us, I do not understand why that is such a threat.
I personally do not find Darwinism and Intelligent Design to be mutually exclusive. I don't have a problem with my children being taught more than one point of view, either. It is better to understand the beliefs of others than to ridicule and dismiss those beliefs as stupidity.
It all comes down to respect.
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I do believe creationism should be taught -- LAwoman, 13:46:12 09/13/08 Sat [1]
in churches and religious schools. That's what churches do best. I even went to Bible school when I was little at a church we didn't belong to. My mom just thought it might be a good experience for me and my bro, just over the summer. It wasn't too bad and I learned what other people believe so it served that purpose just fine. And it was free at the time. I assume most churches still provide some sort of instruction in the beliefs of their particular sects for kids.
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It's not threatening. -- HF, 12:04:53 09/14/08 Sun [1]
It's insulting. I have the right to my own views as much as you have the right to yours, and to insinuate that my children should be taught what you believe simply because it's what you believe is insulting. (By you, I do not specifically mean Jeannine; I mean anyone who advocates teaching creationism in public schools.)
I'm fine with you teaching whatever you want in the privacy of your own home or in private school, but I am not fine with the teaching of any religious doctrine in public school. This is only fair IMO; your children learn what you value and mine will learn what I value.
In my personal case, this would mean exposure to a variety of religions including the possibility that no god exists so that my children can make whatever choice makes the most sense to them. It would not bother me if one of my own children chose to believe in Christianity as long as s/he respected the views of others as well.
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Re: It's not threatening. -- Terry, 18:55:49 09/18/08 Thu [1]
Ok, I've been thinking on this a bit more.
I don't let Ed take the kids to mass. They are too young and easily fooled.
I believe true faith comes from an understanding of the concepts behind religion. Even the most brilliant child is not capable of understanding the abstract concepts within religious teachings. You can "dumb it down" but you're brainwashing the child. "Jesus loves me yes I know, because the Bible tells me so..." That's not true faith it's rhetoric taught at the knee to very young children and delivered in a sing-song they can remember. Hell, I remember it 40 years after I heard it the first time.
When it comes to Intelligent Design I tend to agree with this:
Why Intelligent Design Isn't Science - Contrary to the claims of some proponents of intelligent design (ID), science does not presume naturalism. So science doesn't reject ID because ID is supernatural. Nevertheless, science does reject ID because the ID hypothesis exemplifies none of the characteristics of legitimate scientific explanation.
It will be interesting if those partical acceleration experiments prove the Big Bang once and for all.
I don't go around trying to convert Christians into Atheists although I can't say the same about the Christians I know. IMO, teaching Creationism in public school as science is an attempt to convert. And that's just wrong.
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Maybe it's lame and ignorant of me... -- HF, 19:52:30 09/18/08 Thu [1]
But I just don't care where the universe (or whatever is bigger than the universe) came from. If figuring it out somehow helps us to perform some kind of good, then great, good ahead and learn more. But really, I'm not all that interested in whether we came from the Big Bang or Adam and Eve or the dinosaurs.
I am interested in evolution because there are obvious similarities between humans and monkeys/gorillas/chimps/other primates that I'm not smart enough to remember...and heck, it's cool to witness the evolution of a species. But nah, I don't really care if primates came from outer space or heaven to start with.
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The reason I do believe in ID.... -- lynne, 11:37:23 09/19/08 Fri [1]
(Disclaimer: This is not an attempt to convert anyone or be argumentative, merely presenting another view...and let me state again that I wasn't advocating teaching Creationism in public schools up above)
The reason I can't buy into the Big Bang all by itself is this: look around you. Think about the vastness of the universe and the complexity of the human body, just to name a couple of things. All this, spontaneously, out of nothing, without any intelligence, design or intent?
I just can't get my brain there. That's why I believe to my very core that there's a higher power. You can call him God/Odin/whatever; I believe in the Christian God for many reasons. I *can* believe in God creating the Universe with what appears to us, now, as a Big Bang.
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