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Date Posted: 17:04:06 08/22/08 Fri
Author: Judy
Subject: Thought maybe it was going to be a link to this:
In reply to: jayjay 's message, "is this Fact or Fiction?" on 23:23:13 08/21/08 Thu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIdbYjmbFzo

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Replies:

[> [> Thank you Judy for one of the bravest posts I have seen on this board. -- Jeannine, 12:18:12 08/24/08 Sun [1]

I think it may have been overlooked - after this post, maybe not so much.

I read Caren's post below several times in the last week. To say it was offensive is an understatement. For many, abortion has become a convenient form of birth control - I know women who had abortions because, gee, the pill makes me fat. Now is that wrong, or is that "a woman having control of her body"? I say THAT is barbaric. If my new label is "forced birther", so be it. That label doesn't bother me. The label that DOES bother me is "pro-choice"... or "I am for a woman's right to CHOOSE!" If you are indeed pro-abortion, and there is nothing wrong with being pro-abortion, why not acknowledge it? Why do we always hear "no one is pro-abortion...."?

Partial birth abortions are not limited to cases of unviable births and life threatening conditions. To claim they are is an insult to my intelligence. And to say that anyone who is pro-life would advocate "forcing" women to carry a dead baby to term is absurd. To compel physicians to perform these procedures or lose their license is a travesty.

That being said, I am not personally against all abortion. Cases of rape and incest, as well as bona fide health concerns for the mother or childs life are not my concern. My concern is that last year there were and estimated 500,000 abortions in the United States. This in a country with extraordinary access to birth control and education. THAT is a travesty.

But, of course, "it's all about cutting off lower income women's rights to health care". Well, OF COURSE! What in this world is NOT about abusing and demeaning the ultimate victim, the lower income woman???? You know what? I was a lower income woman. I got a job, got some education, got a better job and made something of myself. I pay a lot in taxes and support many causes on my own. Paying for abortions is not high on my list of worthy causes.

The position of Barack Obama on refusing treatment to failed abortion victims is one that should be highly publicized. I could NEVER vote for someone with such disregard for the lives of children. He is extreme, and he is dangerous.


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[> [> [> I respect your opinion and know that my position is not too popular around here -- Jeannine, 15:45:07 08/24/08 Sun [1]

but the "my way or the highway" people really piss me off.

and for the record... this board was "created" not so we could have a friendly forum for discussing differences, it was to keep the blood and guts off the other board, lol!

Abortion is one topic that is rarely discussed here, maybe because it is so hot and so personal. I am so tired of those that feel that if you are anti-abortion you are anti-woman. Nothing could be further from the truth.


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[> [> [> [> this should have gone under LA W's post! -- Jeannine, 15:46:43 08/24/08 Sun [1]


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[> [> [> [> [> I tried to put my earlier post under yours and failed LOL! I am not a blood and guts fan so -- LAwoman, 17:34:50 08/24/08 Sun [1]

I can see why this board is a good idea for the sake of the other board. Abortion is a topic that is so personal and so heated that I think it's a tough one for either side to remain respectful when discussing it. I certainly have a very strong opinion on it and it's probably the one topic (closely followed by gay marriage) for which I have to really rein myself in when it comes up so that I don't go too far. I find it's almost pointless to discuss it since, like religion and other very personal issues, you aren't going to convert someone to the "other side."


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[> [> [> Two small points.... -- scooter, 05:42:21 08/25/08 Mon [1]

As a woman who is pro-choice, I find the term "pro-abortion" highly offensive. I also find calling Barack Obama "extreme and dangerous" offensive.


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[> [> [> [> Why is it highly offensive? -- Jeannine, 09:26:52 08/25/08 Mon [1]

You call yourself pro-choice. Which choice are we talking about? The choice to have an abortion, right? Therefore, you are pro-abortion. If there is nothing wrong with abortion what is so offensive?

As far as being offended that I called Barry extreme and dangerous.... well, frankly, tough shit. That is nothing compared to what I have heard in the last eight years.


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[> [> [> [> [> Fine... -- scooter, 11:32:37 08/25/08 Mon [1]

but in the future please spare us your lectures about respecting the opinions of others and how you are so tired of political hate speech.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> blah blah blah -- blah blah blah, 14:54:44 08/25/08 Mon [1]


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> What's the matter? Afraid to sign your name? -- scooter, 05:50:36 08/26/08 Tue [1]


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[> [> [> [> [> I didn't take the same level of offense, but maybe I can help answer the question. -- HF, 12:52:13 08/25/08 Mon [1]

I'm not pro-abortion, but I am pro-choice. I do not advocate abortion; I am not "FOR" abortion; and I wish people would make more responsible choices about having sex.

That said, I do advocate choice; I do support legalized abortion; and I do recognize that not every pregnancy should be carried to term.

And in my opinion, this is far more of a pro-life perspective than most "pro-life" people maintain. I value choice because I respect life.

(As a side note, here in Colorado we have utterly reprehensible license plates that say "Respect Life" and a portion of the proceeds of sales go to anti-abortion groups. I strongly resent the implication that because I am pro-choice, I do not respect life. It is exactly the opposite. Because I respect life so much, I am pro-choice.)


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[> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks for your answer HF and I can see your point -- Jeannine, 13:15:40 08/25/08 Mon [1]

Honestly I had not thought of it like that but I guess it is possible to be pro-choice and pro-life.

I think I am with a large group, however, who feel that abortion should be legal but should be viewed as a last resort, not a convenient quick fix.

And I am still appalled by late term/partial birth abortions on any viable baby.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> In my experience, the women and girls I've -- LAwoman, 13:55:51 08/25/08 Mon [1]

known who made that choice absolutely did NOT do it frivolously.


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[> [> [> [> [> To me, pro-choice means -- Terry, 16:52:54 08/27/08 Wed [1]

the right to choose abortion, adoption, single parenthood, parenting with a same-sex partner, parenting with the child's other biological parent, and parenting a child in any other way that doesn't harm a child or anyone else; even if it isn't considered the "norm".

That's what I choose to support. It's a lot more than being PRO-ABORTION.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> Good points all, Terry -- Jeannine, 09:27:33 08/28/08 Thu [1]

But:

I have serious issues with women who view abortion as a convenient procedure and do not consider the new life they carry. I personally know women who have had abortions because they did not want to lose a boyfriend who wasn't ready. A very close friend of mine has had five abortions because birth control pills make her fat. I knew another in my Navy days. She got pregnant deliberately when we were on our ship off the coast of Somalia. She wanted, and got, a trip back to California for an abortion - both the trip and abortion paid for by your tax dollars, by the way. Her reason --- she was homesick. She actually bragged about this.

I would never condemn anyone for having an abortion. I view it as a highly personal decision, but one that should be considered as life-changing. There are also many women who feel traumatized by their decision, and I would like to see them get help dealing with it.

A total ban of abortion is also unreasonable. The last thing I would advocate is forcing a woman to have a child of rape or incest. There are some who have abortions for highly personal reasons and I would never advocate forcing them back to the days of the back alley abortionist. Gee, does that make me a non-forced birther?

I really hate to be painted as someone who feels that women are "not responsible enough to make decisions about their own health". That is absurd. My view is that there are TWO human beings involved here, not just one.

That is more than I wanted to say here, but empathy and rational discussions are the only way to come together on anything.

As Atticus Fitch said in my favorite book:

"You never really understand a person until you consider things from his point of view - until you climb into his skin and walk around in it."


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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: To me, pro-choice means -- Terry, 17:53:19 08/29/08 Fri [1]

I have serious issues with women who view abortion as a convenient procedure and do not consider the new life they carry. I personally know women who have had abortions because they did not want to lose a boyfriend who wasn't ready. A very close friend of mine has had five abortions because birth control pills make her fat. I knew another in my Navy days. She got pregnant deliberately when we were on our ship off the coast of Somalia. She wanted, and got, a trip back to California for an abortion - both the trip and abortion paid for by your tax dollars, by the way. Her reason --- she was homesick. She actually bragged about this.

But it really isn't any of your business why women seek abortions. Your opinion and mine don't count; it's her body and her choice. Just because you (and I) might not agree doesn't mean we have the right to demand laws to stop her.

It's like free speech. Just because we don't like what they say (or in this case; what a woman does) doesn't mean we have the right to stop them.

And for the record; I don't buy into the "except in the case of rape or incest then abortion is ok". Either it's okay or it's not; either it's a woman's choice *no matter what her reasons or circumstances* or it isn't. If pro-life proponents argue that life begins at conception then you can't discriminate against embryos that are conceived by rape or incest.

That's my .02.


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[> [> It's so great that you guys created a board like this. Jeannine, -- LAwoman, 15:30:55 08/24/08 Sun [1]

I have actually found my liberal self agreeing with you on
some topics (not that it should be significant to anyone, just sort of funny to me) and even when I don't, I so enjoy reading your posts. But boy on this one, we are really, really, really, really, really (LOL! enough?) really, really far apart.


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[> [> [> Me too. -- HF, 08:16:50 08/25/08 Mon [1]

I like to read Jeannine's posts, but I rarely argue about abortion. There's just no point outside of a bona-fide political environment.

Additionally, I'm definitely NOT pro-abortion, but I am pro-choice.

I would even argue that I'm pro-life because I want every person who is born to have the best chance at a good life that he or she can. If someone chooses to terminate a pregnancy because the life that would otherwise be born would not be sustainable for any of a multitude of reasons, I think that values life to a greater degree than carrying to term simply because an embryo was fertilized.


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[> [> [> [> I absolutely agree that this is an area in which friendly discussions are impossible -- Jeannine, 09:32:13 08/25/08 Mon [1]

I do, however, think that the beliefs and values of our Presidential candidates are something that should be out in the open.


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[> [> [> Me three -- jayjay, 00:45:41 08/27/08 Wed [1]

Jeannine, you make excellent arguments, and i agree with you alot too! Your Horned Toad alma mater and my Hog just butt head sometimes.

i have politic arguments with my own MOTHER (who is 87 years old) every day.. lol.. and we are both Arkansas Yellah Dog Democrats, go figure! lol..

What does this have to do with Runnin on Empty?

why did the McCain Campaign play a Jackson Browne song?

i'm glad Jackson is suing them. Rights have to start somewhere.


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[> [> [> [> Re: Me three -- muppetmel, 07:14:15 08/27/08 Wed [1]

Well, as a Jackson Browne fanatic from way back but a diehard conservative supporter, I agree McCain's team should have been smarter and not done that without JB's permission. Common sense and copyright considerations, yanno. It was a dumb move.


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[> [> [> [> Well, I have always supported a woman's right to choose Jackson Browne -- Jeannine, 10:23:07 08/27/08 Wed [1]

but I think it was dumb not get permission, but a dumb choice of song for a presidential campaign. Running on Empty? makes me want to run out and VOTE! LOL

God Bless your little Razorback heart, JayJay!

And Muppy, obviously I need you around here... don't be such a stranger!


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[> [> [> [> [> :-D ... If Jackson Browne .... -- muppetmel, 10:36:56 08/27/08 Wed [1]

(Humour alert! Humour alert!)

... were to write the campaign songs for American politicians (from a conservative viewpoint) here's what they would be:

_________________________________________

Barak Obama -- The Pretender / Ready or Not / Black and White

John McCain -- Redemption Song / Soldier of Plenty / Voice of America / I Am a Patriot

Hillary Clinton -- Here Comes Those Tears Again / Unloved / Lawyer's in Love

Bill Clinton -- Till I Go Down / I'll Do Anything / Your
Bright Baby Blues / Tumble down / Naked Ride Home / Marianne, Melissa and Rosie

John Kerry -- Running On Empty / Nothing But Time / If I Only Had A Brain

Al Gore -- My Personal Revenge / My Opening Farewell / Late for the Sky (my personal favourite) / It's Been Raining Here in Long Beach / Information Wars

Joe Leiberman -- Lights and Virtues / I'm the Cat / Call it a Loan

John Edwards -- Daddy's Tune / Somebody's Baby / Shaky Town / The Only Child / Before the Deluge

Try your own. It's fuuuuuuuuunnn!!!

http://www.songlyrics.com/song-lyrics/Jackson%20Browne/7159.html


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[> [> [> [> [> [> Hillary Clinton - Don't Explain -- jayjay, 22:48:51 08/27/08 Wed [1]

the classic immortalized by Billie Holiday


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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Well, I have always supported a woman's right to choose Jackson Browne -- jayjay, 22:35:11 08/27/08 Wed [1]

amen.

i had a thud moment when i ROTFL. good one.

you always make me proud.

xoxox


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