| Subject: Nice post! |
Author:
Ben
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Date Posted: 03/ 3/02 10:42am
In reply to:
ozboy
's message, "Leave my underpants out of this!" on 03/ 3/02 9:48am
Ozboy,
This was a very well-written post! I will leave most of the responding to Damoclese, but I just wanted to say I agree with most of what you say, although I am not personally an atheist.
> Fundamentally you are correct...there is no
>difference between me killing your cat or me killing a
>person, but the ramifications are far different. A
>similar outcome is applied to us by killing a rain
>forest or the air quality or a blade of grass… it is
>all interconnected an thus will affect us in the long
>run … just as executing killers does.
This is one of the few places I do not agree with you. I think if someone takes a life, they should give their own life. Regardless of whether this serves as a better deterrent to other killers (it probably doesn't--people don't kill for rational reasons, usually), it removes _that_ killer from the population, and he/she can never kill again. If a person is willing to take human life, he should be willing to give his own. He has given up his right to live.
> If we look back at the deaths of 6 million jews 60
>years ago or Stalin’s estimated 40 million killed or
>even the sudden disappearance of the ancient Minoan,
>Mayan civilizations or even the Roman Empire, the
>exponentional growth of offspring of these otherwise
>dead people would make life very difficult for me and
>you today!
Good point. Although when populations get out of control, things like starvation and homosexuality usually spring up to help out. I think they are some of evolution's built-in population-control mechanisms.
>What I’m trying to say is that all cultures (human
>intellegence) develop this as a safety net in order to
>cope with life, it just manifests in different ways!
>It shows that we are predisposed to be religious…
>which in turn helps us get through the day and gives
>us eternal life when it’s over ... our reward.... our
>evolution.
Well, I don't think that believing in the afterlife is a "safety net." I do not find the afterlife all that _likely_ or _necessary_, but I have had many experiences which have made me believe that life does go on. I do not think any religion goes along with the reality of what does happen when we die. I don't think there's a reward or any such thing, but I do think that life goes on. For a while, I didn't, but I can no longer think that and be honest with myself.
>If the god thing was real it would all be the same for
>everyone! ... but it is simply a Chinese whisper that
>originates from a dream!
This is simply false logic. That's like saying, "If there was one answer to a math problem, everyone would get it!" Not everyone gets the right answers to a given math problem, but that doesn't mean there isn't one. There could very well be a god, but I have never seen compelling proof offered. A "god" could very well exist and never want to be found or proven.
>While we are alive we are extremely intelligent... but
>is that very intelligence that makes it impossible for
>us to conceive that we will not go on after death…
It's not the intelligence, in my opinion. Animals have intelligence. It's our self-awareness. Besides, it's obviously not impossible for us to conceive that life will not go on, since there are many atheists. I think most people would _prefer_ that life go on after death, which makes it difficult for us to look at the issue in an unbiased way. However, I do feel that I have honestly looked at the issues and have remained very open to the idea that life may not go on after death, yet I have still ultimately come to the conclusion that it does.
> it
>is we who created the afterlife… therefore there is no
>god…. and therefore when we die we do not go on but
>cease to exist… therefore dead people receive no
>punishment… therefore murderers should be imprisoned
>for all their natural lives as punishment!
I don't think punishment is the real issue. I don't personally blame murderers. I blame their brains, their environments... but I figure if I grew up with their genetic structure and their environment, I would be a killer too. So I don't blame them, and I don't feel a need to punish them. I do feel a strong need to _remove_ them from society, and not just keep them alive in some prison somewhere, eating away our tax money. As Brian noted, it may actually cost _more_ to execute someone, but we could change the whole process so that this would not be the case.
>What Abram dreamt about was revolutionary to the human
>condition... the next and final revolution in thought
>… atheism.
Perhaps. I can see that atheism could be a revolutionary way to think--if it is true. I think that if there _is_ no life after death, that is fine, and humans can still learn how to understand that yet live fulfilling lives. I do think that religion hurts far more people than it helps. But maybe there's something in the middle... an understanding that life does go on, and that we will have to live with the decisions we make on earth. And we do not need to fear becoming non-existent when we die, nor do we have to wonder if our relatives who have died are still living. None of this requires any belief in god or any religious belief at all, yet it may well be the reality of things.
Ben
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