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Date Posted: 12/ 8/15 8:40:56pm Tue
Author: Gate Raider
Subject: Did 'gate put a bid in for the SHSU game?

Sam Houston was not a seeded team. Was Colgate eligible to put in a bid for the game? SHSU's stadium seats about 12,000 and tickets are $18 gen. ad. and $5 for students. I thought Colgate had committed to biding for a playoff game when possible?

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[> Re: Did 'gate put a bid in for the SHSU game? -- Maven, 12/ 9/15 1:23:14am Wed

>Sam Houston was not a seeded team. Was Colgate
>eligible to put in a bid for the game? SHSU's stadium
>seats about 12,000 and tickets are $18 gen. ad. and $5
>for students. I thought Colgate had committed to
>biding for a playoff game when possible?

They bid but didn't get. Got to be politics.

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[> [> do the bid amounts vary? -- alum, 12/ 9/15 8:48:41am Wed

in other words, is it auction style and does it go to the highest bidder in a sealed process? or do all schools guarantee the same amount and then the game is awarded according to some criteria of ranking? and if so, i wonder what the criteria was in this case?

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[> Re: Did 'gate put a bid in for the SHSU game? -- Gate'83, 12/ 9/15 9:27:32am Wed

>Sam Houston was not a seeded team. Was Colgate
>eligible to put in a bid for the game? SHSU's stadium
>seats about 12,000 and tickets are $18 gen. ad. and $5
>for students. I thought Colgate had committed to
>biding for a playoff game when possible?

From what I've read on AGS there is a bidding process that re-opens for a 3rd round game so yes, we can/may have put in a bid to host. However the NCAA looks to maximize their revenue from each game & has a guarantee (a large % of whatever the school bids, or a similar % of total ticket sales, whichever is greater). So even if we outbid Sam on the guarantee, the NCAA would likely look at projected attendance and decide which venue maximized their return.

So I don't think it's politics in this case, simply a case of where the NCAA can make more $$$. According to the chair of the selection committee they try to break even on the tournament as a whole, which is understandable.

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[> Re: Did 'gate put a bid in for the SHSU game? -- Gate Raider, 12/ 9/15 11:42:49am Wed

I'm not sure, but I don't think the NCAA looks for a % amount. They require a guaranteed amount. Back in '03 the schools had to guarantee a certain amount of money and pay for the ref's and other minor miscellaneous expenses. If I recall correctly, it was $20,000 in '03. Obviously, it would be higher today. If Colgate bid and didn't bid high enough, shame on them. The school has enough money and always is asking for more donations.Heck, they would have saved thousands in travel expenses. They find enough money to send other teams all over the country and overseas every year. Colgate wants to get fans to games and when a big opportunity to do it comes up they shrink. I'm guessing Colgate will have 60 fans at the game.

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[> [> Re: Did 'gate put a bid in for the SHSU game? -- Pucked up, 12/ 9/15 12:34:06pm Wed

>I'm not sure, but I don't think the NCAA looks for a %
>amount. They require a guaranteed amount. Back in
>'03 the schools had to guarantee a certain amount of
>money and pay for the ref's and other minor
>miscellaneous expenses. If I recall correctly, it was
>$20,000 in '03. Obviously, it would be higher today.
>If Colgate bid and didn't bid high enough, shame on
>them. The school has enough money and always is
>asking for more donations.Heck, they would have saved
>thousands in travel expenses. They find enough money
>to send other teams all over the country and overseas
>every year. Colgate wants to get fans to games and
>when a big opportunity to do it comes up they shrink.
>I'm guessing Colgate will have 60 fans at the game.

60 fans? You are probably right. I have always chuckled at the phrase referencing a team's fans willing to attend an "away" event at any cost, "They travel well." I guess we don't travel well. I wonder how many SHSU fans would have travelled well to Hamilton????

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[> [> Re: Did 'gate put a bid in for the SHSU game? -- maven, 12/ 9/15 1:17:19pm Wed

>I'm not sure, but I don't think the NCAA looks for a %
>amount. They require a guaranteed amount. Back in
>'03 the schools had to guarantee a certain amount of
>money and pay for the ref's and other minor
>miscellaneous expenses. If I recall correctly, it was
>$20,000 in '03. Obviously, it would be higher today.
>If Colgate bid and didn't bid high enough, shame on
>them. The school has enough money and always is
>asking for more donations.Heck, they would have saved
>thousands in travel expenses. They find enough money
>to send other teams all over the country and overseas
>every year. Colgate wants to get fans to games and
>when a big opportunity to do it comes up they shrink.
>I'm guessing Colgate will have 60 fans at the game.

2 fans

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[> Re: Did 'gate put a bid in for the SHSU game? -- Gate'83, 12/ 9/15 2:29:04pm Wed

Think I found the relevant criteria on the NCAA site at this link:
http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/2015-16_DIFCS_PreChamps_20150924.pdf

Site selection is on p. 18, this looks to be the critical passage:
When determining host institutions for playoff games when both teams are unseeded, criteria shall apply as follows:
(1) quality of facility, (2) revenue potential plus estimated net receipts, (3) attendance history and potential, (4) teamís performance (i.e., conference place finish, head-to-head results and number of Division I opponents), and (5) student-athlete well-being (e.g., travel and missed class time).

Also note the NCAA covers travel expense for all playoff teams so that's not an issue. Given Sam's facilty, revenue potential & attendance advantages we would be writing a big check to get the game to Hammy to be played in front of our 60 fans...

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[> [> Re: Did 'gate put a bid in for the SHSU game? -- Gate Raider, 12/ 9/15 8:20:49pm Wed

Gate'83, thanks for the link. Clearly, there was a lot of room for politics in the selection of SHSU for the game. it looks like the only way Colgate will ever get a home game is if they are ranked in the top 4 of the playoff teams (think they were ranked 4 in 2003). For future reference knowing the financial guarantees of $30,000 for the first round, $40,000 for the second, $50,000 for the quarter and $60,000 for the semi is handy. I also noticed that for the prelims the NCAA pays for travel of 130 people including only 60 athletes (outside of coaches, trainers, equipment folks, some pub. relations staff and the AD,who the heck makes up the other 70). For the final they pay for 145 including 70 athletes. There is always politics in everything the NCAA does and it is to the disadvantage of smaller schools. BTW, I don't think the CAA deserves 4 spots in the tourney.

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[> Re: Did 'gate put a bid in for the SHSU game? -- gate, 12/ 9/15 6:41:38pm Wed

I get the criteria but somehow doesn't seem fair (for lack of a better word) to the players who may have earned a home game, revenue or not. Colgate is the exception, not the norm. Let the NoDakStates and JMUs get the NCAA their money; allowing a small school like Colgate the rare opportunity to host a playoff game won't make or break the organization!

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[> Tickets to SHSU game. -- Gate Raider, 12/ 9/15 9:06:27pm Wed

Interesting to note that Colgate has to purchase 200 tickets for Saturday's game at SHSU. Cost is $18 a ticket. They also had to purchase 200 for the JMU game at $25 each. Colgate should give the tickets for free to anyone who shows up at the game wearing a Colgate shirt. They will probably have 150 left over in Texas. Too bad, a home game would have been sweet.

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[> Good question -- 'gate80, 12/ 9/15 9:32:30pm Wed

Maven is an insider, and I trust him when he says we made a bid for a home playoff game. That in itself is a huge step forward for Colgate, and shows the influence Vicky must have.

Before we start crapping on the NCAA for being unfair, gate, we should review our history when it comes to bidding for playoff games. As a seeded team in 2003, Colgate only had to put up a 20k and 30k guarantee for the first 2 playoff games. The university refused, and alums had to scramble to come up with the money (we covered the guarantee despite the fact that the 2 playoff games were played in snowstorms). Even after 2 wins Colgate refused to put up the guarantee for the SEMIs, and we thus became the only seeded team to forfeit home field advantage in the 38 year history of FCS football. In 2012 we ranked ahead of Wagner in every conceivable category (facility, attendance, ranking, rating, etc), but because we didn't bid for a game we forfeited home field to Wagner and made the team travel to a high school level dump in Staten Island. And of course we were granted a home playoff game in 1982, despite the fact that George Langdon spent most of that fall publicly criticizing the NCAA for attempting to conduct a national championship tournament, trying to impress his Ivy friends. (I'm not sure a bid or guarantee was needed then.)

Sam Houston State has an endowment of 50M for 20,000 students. Colgate has an endowment of 900M for 2900 students. We were in a position to make a serious bid and outbid SHSU, but didn't. I'm not surprised, nor should anyone who has followed Colgate fb the last few decades.

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[> [> Re: -- gate, 12/ 9/15 10:00:19pm Wed

>I'm not surprised, nor
>should anyone who has followed Colgate fb the last few
>decades.

I'm not surprised either, 'gate80, but it's an unfortunate circumstance/disservice to those who play for 'Gate. I'm curious, however, if our players would prefer the playoffs in front of 17,000 fans at JMU or at home in front of 3000 fans at Colgate? Perhaps they are just thrilled to be there and it doesn't matter?

Very proud of the Raiders right now...traveling across the country for the 3rd straight weekend against another ranked team in a hostile environment. So impressed they've made it this far.

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[> [> 2003 Bids -- Gate Raider, 12/10/15 1:48:37am Thu

Regarding the third playoff game in 2003 the decision not to bid for it was made by the football coaching staff. They had the go ahead to bid if they wanted to. After the two snowstorm games it just seemed prudent to go down to FL.

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[> [> [> Re: 2003 Bids -- Big Al, 12/10/15 9:17:27am Thu

>Regarding the third playoff game in 2003 the decision
>not to bid for it was made by the football coaching
>staff. They had the go ahead to bid if they wanted
>to. After the two snowstorm games it just seemed
>prudent to go down to FL.

The trip to FAU worked out just fine. Go Gate!

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[> [> [> Re: 2003 Bids -- Colg8, 12/10/15 4:23:58pm Thu

>Regarding the third playoff game in 2003 the decision
>not to bid for it was made by the football coaching
>staff. They had the go ahead to bid if they wanted
>to. After the two snowstorm games it just seemed
>prudent to go down to FL.

I second this. I asked Biddle about this and he said it himself. Biddle and the coaching staff treated it like they were going south for a bowl game. The reality of Colgate Football is that the players like to play on the road. If you ever get a chance to speak with any of them, they will tell you that. Other than being accustomed to the weather, I don't think the players see the Kerr Dome as a big advantage.

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[> [> The trip to FAU.... -- alum, 12/10/15 9:48:11am Thu

worked out great for Gate but the added travel def cost us against Delaware.

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[> [> Hmmm -- 'gate80, 12/10/15 10:40:51am Thu

Yes that was the party line, Gate Raider, but I'm skeptical to say the least. That would require us to believe the following things:

Colgate refused to put up a 20k and 30k guarantee (which would be recouped) for the first 2 playoff games, but was willing to put up 50k (perhaps not recouped) for the 3rd one??

The football coaching staff (!!) was given the decision whether to bid or not? Biddle told me he wasn't even asked about putting artificial turf at Kerr, and would have preferred grass!

What would have been the coaching staff's rationale for giving up a home game to travel to Florida? ("Let's see, we just upset 2 powerful teams at home in the snow, and we're playing a young Florida team renowned for its speed, most of whose players have never played in [or perhaps never have seen] snow. That's not really fair, is it? We should travel down there to give them a fighting chance.")

When the AD at App St (on the NCAA playoff committee) was asked on TV why the semis were going to be in Florida, he did alot of hemming and hawing. If it were just the coaching staff's preference why wouldn't he just say that?

Big Al is right it worked out for the semis. (Probably my favorite Colgate fb road trip ever - the 10 hours I spent at Lockhart Stadium and its ground were unforgettable.) But alum is also right it didn't help us in the finals. (Travelling nearly 5000 miles in 5 days; going from freezing to 85 degrees to freezing again, with some players including Branch getting the flu; not making excuses, as any team capable of beating Delaware that year would have been in I-A, but it certainly didn't help.)

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[> [> [> Re: Hmmm -- The Lone Haranguer, 12/10/15 1:02:05pm Thu

'gate80, don't forget all the studying the players had to do!

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[> [> [> [> The glass is 98% full -- The Future, 12/10/15 9:01:55pm Thu

'80. it's amazing how no matter how well Colgate football is doing, you can bring up the same five things from the past 30 years as proof that Colgate hates Colgate football. Just stop. If you love Colgate football--which I think you do--live a little. These are the good times. You're going to miss them.

Everyone who knows Vicky says Colgate put in a bid they thought would win the UNH game. The teams Colgate is playing are higher ranked and draw more. They are going to win any tiebreakers in terms of bid--plus these teams should be hosting (but not winning!) these games. They had better regular seasons and draw more fans. If the bids are close, UNH, JMU, SHSU should host--and that's OK.

As for the TV broadcast showing Colgate kids studying (12 YEARS AGO!!!) This is a TV producer's decision. The story of the game was smart kids who don't get scholarships playing against a 1-AA power. You need footage of the smart kids, so you show the Colgate studying. Showing Colgate's smart kids on TV is not a bad thing and Aveni didn't tell ESPN to shoot it.

Accept that we have a great team and a great AD and a great coach and that we are going scholarship and playing (and beating) Syracuse next year and they just hired a jock president and things are getting better because... there are people at Colgate who love Colgate football.

Maybe I can distract you:
Here's an article about Lehigh players getting arrested. It has been suggested that a few shouldn't have been playing in the Colgate game:

http://6abc.com/news/police-lehigh-football-players-seeking-revenge-went-to-wrong-home/1117316/

Best of times...

Story of the tournament...

Future is bright...

Say it over and over. It's fun!

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[> [> [> [> [> I am happy, Future, trust me on that! -- 'gate80, 12/10/15 11:51:15pm Thu

I haven't been as optimistic about the future of Colgate football since 1982. I said our victory last week was one of the most impressive in my 40 years of following the Raiders. I think Vicky and Hunt are terrific. When have I said otherwise? I was going to travel to Texas this weekend until the game time was changed.

I didn't start this thread about bidding for home playoff games. But when I hear it said that Biddle didn't want to play at home for the semis in 2003, after 2 great home playoff victories against spirited crowds, I have to call bs. This is the first I've heard this in 12 years.

I trust we now are bidding for home playoff games, which is terrific. I agree with you completely that we will almost always lose a competitive bidding process for the reasons you cited. Which is why it was such a shame when we forfeited home field in the rare situations we could have obtained a home game. Wagner was 3 years ago, not 30. Did you see the post from the SHSU grad about how they always bid high to make sure they get a home game? I was off by a factor of 10 in a prior post - our endowment per student is over 125 TIMES what SHSU's is. Do we bid high? This is the first year we have bid at all.

It wasn't just ESPN showing our players studying and taking tests before a title game. The Colgate Scene ran pictures of this, as they did in 1990 when the hockey team played Wisconsin in the national championship game. The only thing more absurd than sending out those pictures would be if we actually made the players take tests in their Chattanooga hotel the morning of a freaking title game! (Did we??) This has been a recurring theme since my college days, when we fed Bob Hope lame jokes about our fb players studying so much that they were neglecting their football. We couldn't go to the playoffs when we were ranked #1 because "academics are paramount at Colgate". Even our athletic website motto - champions in the classroom and in Div 1 athletics - betrays a totally unwarranted academic insecurity that insults me as an alum. We are a top 25 liberal arts college for cryin out loud, why do we need to do this crap?

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[> KICKOFF CHANGED TO 11:00am SAT. -- gate, 12/ 9/15 9:44:26pm Wed

Due to expected bad weather, kickoff is changed from 8pm to 11am on Saturday:

http://www.gobearkats.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=92955&SPID=11345&DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=210574087&DB_OEM_ID=19900

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[> [> Re: KICKOFF CHANGED TO 11:00am SAT. -- analyzer, 12/10/15 12:16:27pm Thu

Technically, I believe it is changed from 8 p.m. eastern to 12 noon eastern or 7 p.m. central to 11 a.m. central, not 8.p.m. to 11 a.m.

Go 'gate!

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[> Re: Did 'gate put a bid in for the SHSU game? -- AnotherKatFan, 12/10/15 10:58:03am Thu

>Sam Houston was not a seeded team. Was Colgate
>eligible to put in a bid for the game? SHSU's stadium
>seats about 12,000 and tickets are $18 gen. ad. and $5
>for students. I thought Colgate had committed to
>biding for a playoff game when possible?
FYI- SHSU bids big every year they're not seeded. Typically highest in country. Those Texas A&M, LSU, Baylor and Tech games pay off when it comes down to bidding. We lost money the SUU game but it's worth it considering SHSU is 9-0 at home in the playoffs.

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[> [> Re: Did 'gate put a bid in for the SHSU game? -- 'gate80, 12/10/15 11:16:23am Thu

>FYI- SHSU bids big every year they're not seeded.
>Typically highest in country. Those Texas A&M, LSU,
>Baylor and Tech games pay off when it comes down to
>bidding. We lost money the SUU game but it's worth it
>considering SHSU is 9-0 at home in the playoffs.

SHSU "gets" it. Their endowment per student is $2500, compared to over $31,000 for Colgate.

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