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Date Posted: 10/12/15 11:35:35am Mon
Author: Tunkmaster
Subject: Re: The Ivy League
In reply to: The Future 's message, "The Ivy League" on 10/11/15 10:59:46pm Sun

The Ivies cannot exceed the financial aid limits for each sport. So, for example, all the aid they give football players, whether it's called need based or merit, cannot exceed the equivalent of 63 full scholarships. Now at the FCS level aid can be spread among more than 63 players (but no more than 85 "counters"), but the total amount can't exceed the 63 scholarship limit. So the Ivies can't have 100 football players receiving financial aid.

To say the Patriot League is behind the Ivy League in this somewhat stretches the point. Colgate was giving close to the NCAA maximum in aid to football players prior to scholarships. It was called need-based aid then. I've seen numbers that estimated football player aid at between 50 and 60 scholarship equivalents. Indeed, instituting merit aid for football was an easy transition financially for Colgate since the need-based aid went away and was replaced by merit aid almost dollar-for-dollar. In effect, the name of the aid was changed. It was a more difficult transition for other league members.

That scholarships haven't shown a noticeable improvement in athletic success, yet, is understandable given the above. As RichH notes elsewhere in this thread, Patriot League coaches probably haven't yet figured out how to use scholarships effectively to get players who are superior to those we had pre-scholarship.

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Replies:

[> [> [> [> [> Re: The Ivy League -- The Future, 10/12/15 12:22:05pm Mon

Tunkmaster,
You are right and I am wrong. I got fired up about the idea of the Ivies circumventing scholarship rules by giving everyone scholarships. This is not my first time doing this and it's not your first time correcting me. I blame the defense.

Here is the current list of what each Ivy league school offers in terms of aid:

http://www.businessinsider.com/congrats-you-got-into-the-school-of-your-dreams-now-its-time-to-think-about-how-to-pay-for-it-2015-4

I continue to want to assume that having financial aid being universal for students of families making under $65,000, doesn't count towards athletic scholarships. I am still wrong.

The conspiracy theorist in me can't help but imagine the Ivies going to a "Suggested Donation" for tuition as the next step in the great "How We Can Win Sports Championships While Saying We Don't Offer Athletic Scholarships Ruse of the 21st Century."


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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The Ivy League -- Tunkmaster, 10/12/15 12:54:57pm Mon

>The conspiracy theorist in me can't help but imagine
>the Ivies going to a "Suggested Donation" for tuition
>as the next step in the great "How We Can Win Sports
>Championships While Saying We Don't Offer Athletic
>Scholarships Ruse of the 21st Century."

Wouldn't surprise me at all if that happened.


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[> [> [> [> [> Re: The Ivy League -- RichH, 10/12/15 12:47:59pm Mon

>The Ivies cannot exceed the financial aid limits for
>each sport. So, for example, all the aid they give
>football players, whether it's called need based or
>merit, cannot exceed the equivalent of 63 full
>scholarships. Now at the FCS level aid can be spread
>among more than 63 players (but no more than 85
>"counters"), but the total amount can't exceed the 63
>scholarship limit. So the Ivies can't have 100
>football players receiving financial aid.
>
>To say the Patriot League is behind the Ivy League in
>this somewhat stretches the point. Colgate was giving
>close to the NCAA maximum in aid to football players
>prior to scholarships. It was called need-based aid
>then. I've seen numbers that estimated football player
>aid at between 50 and 60 scholarship equivalents.
>Indeed, instituting merit aid for football was an easy
>transition financially for Colgate since the
>need-based aid went away and was replaced by merit aid
>almost dollar-for-dollar. In effect, the name of the
>aid was changed. It was a more difficult transition
>for other league members.
>
>That scholarships haven't shown a noticeable
>improvement in athletic success, yet, is
>understandable given the above. As RichH notes
>elsewhere in this thread, Patriot League coaches
>probably haven't yet figured out how to use
>scholarships effectively to get players who are
>superior to those we had pre-scholarship.
The Ivies are exempted per NCAA agreement from equivalency cap of 63. The only limit on recruiting is a 30 per year rolling average recruit classes. The exemption has remained in place under the rationale that ALL qualifying students get the exact same grants. It does not mean that all football recruits get full rides or even any aid at all. However,it is fair to conclude that HYP have more players receiving aid than any PL team. Whether this will change given the changes in Ivy aid to their students remains to be seen.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The Ivy League -- The Future, 10/12/15 1:14:08pm Mon

RichH to the rescue!!!

I knew it wasn't the defense!!!!!!!!!!


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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The Ivy League -- Tunkmaster, 10/12/15 4:04:02pm Mon

Is that a special agreement with the Ivy League or is it just the application of an existing rule? The Ivy Agreement, which was between the Ivy schools, was revised about 10 years ago to reduce the number of recruited football players to 120 or a max of 30/year, among other revisions.

NCAA Rule 15.5.1.1
Football or Basketball, Varsity Competition. In football or basketball, a student-athlete who was recruited (see Bylaw 15.02.8) by the awarding institution and who receives institutional financial aid
(as set forth in Bylaw 15.02.4.2) granted without regard in any degree to athletics ability does not have to be counted
until the student-athlete engages in varsity intercollegiate competition (as opposed to freshman, B-team, subvarsity, intramural or club competition) in those sports.

So, it seems to me that since all Ivy aid is non-athletic, Ivy teams can stick players on their JV teams and the aid won't count toward NCAA limits until the player actually gets to varsity and the team that lines up on the field on Saturday is still limited to 63 equivalencies. Correct?


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[> [> [> [> [> Re: The Ivy League -- RichH, 10/12/15 1:30:24pm Mon

It should be noted that the same exemption afforded the Ivies also applies in the same way to the service academies.


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