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Date Posted: 20:09:07 04/10/03 Thu
Author: animal
Subject: Re: THE SUNY's for those who wish to be informed
In reply to: Urban Barrister 's message, "Re: THE SUNY's for those who wish to be informed" on 19:50:10 04/10/03 Thu

>>>BINGHAMTON IS SURE TO PUT ON AN INCREDIBLE ATMOSPHERE
>>>FOR THE TOURNEY. BUT THAT IS NOT THE ISSUE
>HERE...the
>>>issue is...buying your way to the top. Other schools
>>>who cant spend the money, or choose not to spend the
>>>money to guarentee broadbased sports), on one program
>>>should have equal access to this tournament. THAT MY
>>>FRIEND, is the heart of the argument.
>>
>>That's my whole problem. Binghamton is putting all
>>its money into hoop and ignoring the rest. AE is
>>about sponsoring broad-based athletic programs, the
>>conference sponsors 21 different sports and the
>>average AE school sponsors far more sports than the
>>average D1 school. Where is Binghamton in the latest
>>Commissioner's Cup standings? 8th (ahead of UA).
>>Despite having a shitty men's basketball team, UNH is
>>1st. Northeastern and BU (the real one) are 2nd and
>>3rd. They get what this league is about, trying to be
>>competitive in all sports and not getting good at one
>>and sucking at the rest. It doesn't matter,
>>Binghamton is so bent on getting big-time they will
>>probably join another league in three years anyway.
>
>Dane96 is correct that Bing started "talking" about
>moving up from DIII back in April of 1993, but I'm not
>sure his characterization of our move from DIII to DI
>is entirely accurate. If you want to check out a
>decent time line showing Bing's progress from DIII to
>DI, check out this link:
>http://athletics.binghamton.edu/div-one-timeline.html
>
>As for Bing being a one school program, while it's
>true they're pumping a lot of money into B-ball (it
>is, after all, our primary revenue sport b/c we don't
>have football or hockey), to suggest that we don't
>have a broad based athletic program is absurd. Note
>the facts: In '96, we were 12th in the nation (out of
>395 programs) in the Sears Cup DIII standings for most
>successful program and 1st in NYS. In '97, we were
>13th in the nation, again as DIII. In '98, we were
>32nd. In '99, we moved up to DII, joined the NECC
>Conference and promptly won the NECC President's Cup
>for best overall program (beating out SBU and Alb, who
>were also members at the time). In 2000, we won 11
>NECC Conference championships.

Those Sears Cup things are biased. Make a few NCAA's and you'll finish somewhere halfway decent in the standings. Besides, that was 6 years ago. As for your NECC glory, that conference was on its last legs when you were a member. In fact, in your glorious year of 2000, the league had powerful Felician College and Teikyo Post University as members. The conference folded after the 2000 season.

>
>Since moving up to DIII and joining the AE, we've
>already won one conference championship (Men's
>Swimming) and have had top three finishes in Women's
>B-ball (2nd in '02),Golf (2nd -and should be the
>favorite to win this year), Men's Tennis (seeded #3,
>lost in semis), and Women's Tennis (3rd). As for the
>rest, with the exception of M & W's Lacrosse (eaach of
>which we started from scratch two years ago), I don't
>believe we've finished last in any sport.
>
>So, Bing is hardly a one-sport program.

Yeah, you haven't been last, but most of the Olympic sport programs aren't what I would call competitive. And instead of putting all your money into a building that will be half-full most of the time, at best, why don't you upgrade some of the outdoor facilities? Do you guys even have a track?

Hey, at least the Bearcats can claim play-in game glory one of these years.

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Replies:

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: THE SUNY's for those who wish to be informed -- Let's be fair -- Urban Barrister, 21:06:06 04/10/03 Thu

>>>>BINGHAMTON IS SURE TO PUT ON AN INCREDIBLE
>ATMOSPHERE
>>>>FOR THE TOURNEY. BUT THAT IS NOT THE ISSUE
>>HERE...the
>>>>issue is...buying your way to the top. Other
>schools
>>>>who cant spend the money, or choose not to spend the
>>>>money to guarentee broadbased sports), on one
>program
>>>>should have equal access to this tournament. THAT MY
>>>>FRIEND, is the heart of the argument.
>>>
>>>That's my whole problem. Binghamton is putting all
>>>its money into hoop and ignoring the rest. AE is
>>>about sponsoring broad-based athletic programs, the
>>>conference sponsors 21 different sports and the
>>>average AE school sponsors far more sports than the
>>>average D1 school. Where is Binghamton in the latest
>>>Commissioner's Cup standings? 8th (ahead of UA).
>>>Despite having a shitty men's basketball team, UNH is
>>>1st. Northeastern and BU (the real one) are 2nd and
>>>3rd. They get what this league is about, trying to
>be
>>>competitive in all sports and not getting good at one
>>>and sucking at the rest. It doesn't matter,
>>>Binghamton is so bent on getting big-time they will
>>>probably join another league in three years anyway.
>>
>>Dane96 is correct that Bing started "talking" about
>>moving up from DIII back in April of 1993, but I'm not
>>sure his characterization of our move from DIII to DI
>>is entirely accurate. If you want to check out a
>>decent time line showing Bing's progress from DIII to
>>DI, check out this link:
>>http://athletics.binghamton.edu/div-one-timeline.html
>>
>>As for Bing being a one school program, while it's
>>true they're pumping a lot of money into B-ball (it
>>is, after all, our primary revenue sport b/c we don't
>>have football or hockey), to suggest that we don't
>>have a broad based athletic program is absurd. Note
>>the facts: In '96, we were 12th in the nation (out of
>>395 programs) in the Sears Cup DIII standings for most
>>successful program and 1st in NYS. In '97, we were
>>13th in the nation, again as DIII. In '98, we were
>>32nd. In '99, we moved up to DII, joined the NECC
>>Conference and promptly won the NECC President's Cup
>>for best overall program (beating out SBU and Alb, who
>>were also members at the time). In 2000, we won 11
>>NECC Conference championships.
>
>Those Sears Cup things are biased. Make a few NCAA's
>and you'll finish somewhere halfway decent in the
>standings. Besides, that was 6 years ago. As for
>your NECC glory, that conference was on its last legs
>when you were a member. In fact, in your glorious
>year of 2000, the league had powerful Felician College
>and Teikyo Post University as members. The conference
>folded after the 2000 season.
>
>>
>>Since moving up to DIII and joining the AE, we've
>>already won one conference championship (Men's
>>Swimming) and have had top three finishes in Women's
>>B-ball (2nd in '02),Golf (2nd -and should be the
>>favorite to win this year), Men's Tennis (seeded #3,
>>lost in semis), and Women's Tennis (3rd). As for the
>>rest, with the exception of M & W's Lacrosse (eaach of
>>which we started from scratch two years ago), I don't
>>believe we've finished last in any sport.
>>
>>So, Bing is hardly a one-sport program.
>
>Yeah, you haven't been last, but most of the Olympic
>sport programs aren't what I would call competitive.
>And instead of putting all your money into a building
>that will be half-full most of the time, at best, why
>don't you upgrade some of the outdoor facilities? Do
>you guys even have a track?
>
>Hey, at least the Bearcats can claim play-in game
>glory one of these years.

Let's be fair here. The Sears Cup standings may give too much weight to an NCAA appearance, but we finished well into the top 10% in the country three years in a row. That didn't happen on the strength of one program alone.

Bing has been consistently strong over the past 15 years in Women's Basketball, Tennis (M&W), Golf (M&W), Swimming (M&W), Softball, Soccer (M&W) and Wrestling (an Olympic Sport that the AE doesn't have, which is why we're an affiliate member of the CAA for it) and in Baseball for the last 5 or so. We started DI varsity programs in lacrosse from scratch, so I think we deserve at least 5 years before being judged on our success there. As for the rest -- track, cross country and women's v-ball, while we haven't been great in them, we haven't outright sucked either.

As for our facilities, have you even been to the campus? Yes, we have a track. It's actually a great facility, recently upgraded, with a lacrosse field inside and seating for something like 3,000. We also have great outdoor tennis courts (and access to a very nice indoor private facility), a new softball stadium, a recently upgraded baseball field, one of the best swimming facilities in the state, a SECOND gym used only for v-ball these days, and more soccer fields than we know what to do with. Once the new Events Center comes on line, we'll also have a state of the art indoor track and arena for b-ball and wrestling. Oh, and our home golf course is also home to an annual PGA stop.

The truth is the facility that needed to be upgraded the most was our gym, which, from the TV games I saw this season, wasn't any worse than any other gym in the league-- certainly not those at NU and BU. And the new facility should easily be one of the league's best. So, I have to wonder where you're coming from with your comments.

Look, everyone's entitled to their opinion on whether or not it makes sense to give the tourney to the school that pays or, to use someone else's words, "sucks up" the most. I agree money may not be the best criteria on which to decide the issue, and that the tourney probably shouldn't be in Bing for three straight years. But, you can't fault Bing for what it's done -- which is to have upgraded what was already a well-respected DIII program into a solid, well-rounded DI program with all sorts of potential -- in less than 10 years. I'm sure if you were to get an honest answer from the folks at SBU and Albany, they'd tell you that they were envious of what Bing's done.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: THE SUNY's for those who wish to be informed -- Let's be fair -- Dane96, 23:03:55 04/10/03 Thu

<<

Agreed. I wish we had more money. The soccer field at Bing was always exceptional. And West Gym is a pretty good facility. All in all, outside of BU, the SUNY's are doing much more to upgrade facilities than then the old guard. Its an attractive selling point. I would also bet that in 5 years...BING fields a football team. Lots of talent in the center of the state...and enough space to build a stadium. If the basketball team brings in enough loot...watch out for a football program.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: THE SUNY's for those who wish to be informed -- BingGrad, 00:57:30 04/11/03 Fri

I don't understand the knock on Binghamton for not being a broad athletic program. Heck, the AE sponsors 21 sports and Binghamton competes in 20 of them. Only Vermont can match that -- and that's giving them credit for Mens Indoor Track where they didn't field a team this past winter. Northeastern participates in only 13 (the fewest by far, Maine comes next with 16), rumbles about leaving the conference but still wants to host the hoops tournament.

So Binghamton is the conferences broadest athletic program. Sure, some of the others play hockey (we weren't very good at that -- 3 or 4 years of NCAA division III and only about 2 wins) but we wrestle (fairly well, I might add) and apparently most of the other AE schools don't.

Not strong in the Olympic sports? They just won men's swimming and took 3rd on the womens side. Track is admittedly a step or two behind the better half of the league, but at least Binghamton fields a decent sized team that is competitive in many individual events -- unlike some other AE members (Hartford) that just show up with a half-dozen athletes, score 0 and call it supporting the conference.

Other sports? They'll probably qualify for the NCAA's in Golf this year -- how many AE schools can claim an NCAA qualifier that didn't get in via an AE automatic bid?

Despite the above, this has been a disappointing year for Binghamton athletics -- better things were and are expected of Women's hoops and both soccer teams.

I doubt Binghamton will ever field a football team. They need only to look west at the fiasco that is Buffalo athletics to see that there's no need to flush money down the low-level football drain. How much money would the other AE schools have to support their athletic programs with if they'd drop their football teams?

Unless they reconfigured the track when they rebuilt it a few years ago, you can't even fit a 120 yard football field inside it. The straight-aways are only about 90-100 yards.

Sorry if this sounds defensive or rubs some folks the wrong way, but I just don't get the reaction. Binghamton joins the conference, supports it 110%, builds a new on-campus arena which will be the class of the conference and wants to host the basketball tournament where it will probably put 1,000 locals in the seats for any game that's played. And this is bad? As for how few things there are to do outside of the basketball tourney -- how is any AE location save Boston any different?

Here's an open question to those who are so dead set against Binghamton hosting. Have you ever been there?

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: THE SUNY's for those who wish to be informed -- Dane96, 14:09:31 04/11/03 Fri

>Sorry if this sounds defensive or rubs some folks the
>wrong way, but I just don't get the reaction.
>Binghamton joins the conference, supports it 110%,
>builds a new on-campus arena which will be the class
>of the conference and wants to host the basketball
>tournament where it will probably put 1,000 locals in
>the seats for any game that's played. And this is
>bad? As for how few things there are to do outside of
>the basketball tourney -- how is any AE location save
>Boston any different?
>
>Here's an open question to those who are so dead set
>against Binghamton hosting. Have you ever been there?

Its a response for what fans witnessed years ago, witnessed by the buying of tv games at a large expense and the relative uniformed posting of BingoBooster who put most of us in a corner. Remember, this is a league of dogs...so we will fight ourselves out of a corner.

Thing is this, Hartford would pack Chase, UVM would pack Patrick, on and on, for first round games. UA as a central locale, is an easy drive for all (MAINE being the furthest at maybe 6 hours max). The school had near sellouts in DIII, packed the gym for our WInter Homecoming each year we have had it...w/ crappo teams (our team that is) and hosting the ECAC's which meant nothing to the team or school since we were moving up. THat tourney featured 3600 for our game vs. Merrimack and 2000 for the finals which we didnt make. The state championship is held at Glens Falls for H.S. and is regularly packed. Even St. Rose packs Colonie High Gym for the Key Capital Classic (not sure if they still have it) and Colonie High is a 2k capacity.

People love hoops in the capital district, which is an area that has well over 250,000 people. SO...the argument goes...the tournament should not be bought...when others can do a good job. Thats where the issue lies.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: THE SUNY's for those who wish to be informed -- BUfan2, 15:34:10 04/11/03 Fri

>Here's an open question to those who are so dead set
>against Binghamton hosting. Have you ever been there?

I wouldn't say I am "dead set" against Binghamton hosting the tournament, but I AM with those who don't think awarding Binghamton the tournamnet for a multi-year deal is a good thing. My reasons are mainly the distance (for just about everyone) and a lack of stuff to do in Vestal and the surrounding area.

And, yes, I've been there -- twice -- when BU played there the past two years. It wasn't too bad when the Bing game was two days after the Albany game (Albany breaking up the trip as a half way stop from Boston), but going here just for that game this year was bad. Loooooog drive and very little to do once there. Hotels were relativley cheap, but none top or even average tier. OK places to eat but nothing special. And no attractions close by -- except I saw signs for the Howe Caverns, but that didn't look very inviting in the dead of winter. If projections turn out to be true, and the tournament is in Vestal, I for one will be looking to Bing posters for tips on stuff to do that's close by. I'll be there, but I won't be happy about it.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: THE SUNY's for those who wish to be informed -- BingGrad, 23:54:38 04/11/03 Fri

I'll be the first to admit that there isn't much to do in Binghamton or Vestal -- especially in the winter. There are some very nice outdoor spots nearby, but not really suitable for tournament time. Is the situation really that different in any AE city other than Boston?

BTW, if you haven't done so already, the Baseball Hall of Fame is in Cooperstown about 80 miles from Binghamton (60 miles on I-88 back towards Albany then 20 miles north) along with 2 or 3 other nice family oriented museums. If the tourney were played so that it were 4 games on day 1 and then 2 night games on day 2 with a 7:00 start, you could make a nice day trip out of Cooperstown -- though it'd be a long day.

(Of course when Boston goes out in the first round, you could just stay the whole day in Cooperstown and just keep on truckin' back to Beantown with your tails between your legs the next morning!)

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