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Date Posted: 17:23:47 05/16/02 Thu
Author: Perceptor II
Subject: Differing interpretations
In reply to: Icon 's message, "Me too! :)" on 23:04:07 05/15/02 Wed

>Even in religious institutions, the leaders lead at the
>consent of those they lead, since either they are elected
>into that position or if not the people leave to find a
>place more to their liking.

In the cases I cited, it's men who elect men, because of custom, practice and tradition.

Hmmmm. In the churches I come from women have been allowed to vote for the call of the pastor, referendums and church offices, and even hold most church offices (though the pastorship is still often restricted to men). I suspect that many of these people would look at the institutions you're familiar with and say, "Sure we're conservative and proud of it, but that's just plain backward!"

Odd. I come from a very conservative, somewhat fundamentalist Protestant background, and it seems that the churches I'm familiar with are more progressive than the ones you're familiar with. I mean that as an observation, not as a judgment.

Except that apathy can swing the vote considerably in elections and still ahvea major imapct on society. A largely apathetic society, such as we have at present judging by official returns from elections, is not reflected in the power stucture maintained by those who are activists.

But how can a change in government change society all that much when the voters don't care? Voter apathy is a symptom of a widespread attitude that who governs is fairly irrelevent. How does a leader effect a society that doesn't particularly care that he's nominally in charge? There's a lot more to society than laws and regulations.

As far as the activists, you have a point. I suspect that'd be more a problem in Parliamentary systems, where one party or coalition has control over all branches of the government, than here in the U.S., where total control by one party is rare and the activists tend to cancel each other out.

Perhaps, but I found that was not the tone or intent of the original quote, which was directed at men helping women in need. I want men to help people in need, regardless of gender.

Perhaps here is the root of our disagreement. You say that the quote was "directed at men helping women in need". I don't believe that the author is specifying a gender to be helped. He is only specifying men to do the helping because he is writing in a publication specifically addressed to Christian men, not to exclude women from that responsibility.

More than a little.... :) Politics is what women convinced men they were interested in so they'd be out of the way.

That's a rather patronizing statement...

"The clear duty for real men goes beyond "live and let live". "

I've never once felt that was a duty or something to strive for, it's a cop out.

Which is why the author is asking us to strive for a a duty beyond "live and let live".

The real challenge to all of us is "Love your neightbour as yourself".

I agree 100%.

It's harder to be positive in a negative atmopshere than negative in a positive atmosphere.

If the old foundation was faulty, one must tear it down before building a new house.

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