I believe it's something much more fundamental (and I am not alone)... -- SPEAK UP

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Date Posted: 23:38:55 06/08/02 Sat
Author: John
Author Host/IP: 1Cust173.tnt1.west-houston2.tx.da.uu.net / 67.209.57.173
Subject:

I believe it's something much more fundamental (and I am not alone)...
In reply to: Jack Sprouse 's message, "Re: What drives civilizations to grow, thrive and then fall? How does this apply to the US and the Middle East?" on 15:06:59 06/02/02 Sun

Dear Richard,

One can make a very strong case for the following conclusion: Every one of these societies you and your fellow poster mention (and others too) rose on the strength of its national and personal virtue and fell because of the imperfection or loss of that virtue. If you like, you may call such virtue a sense of national vision, for the two are very closely related. No amount of military or economic strength will save a nation if it loses its national vision and casts off moral restraint because of it. Moreover, imperfection in national vision inevitably has negative consequences, even if the implications of that vision (a nation's founding values) are followed to the letter.

One or two examples will hopefully suffice to illustrate the point. "It can scarcely be denied that the Greeks had deserved their fate," wrote C.E. Robinson ("Everyday Life in Ancient Greece," Oxford, 1884). "The interminable feuds between state and state had utterly exhausted their strength. Within the states themselves, the sense of patriotism and unity had been sapped by tendencies of which we spoke above. This quick-witted folk had developed their intelligence at the expense of their character. They had disputed, intrigued, and overreached one another till the life of the city-state had been poisoned at the root. one is tempted to say that their vaunted intellectualism had proved a miserable fiasco; and so in a sense it might have been if this had been the end. But it was not the end." The author then tracks how Rome absorbed Greek culture and gave it new life, passing it on to the West. However, he points out later that with all the Greek trust in human reasoning and the advantages that gave, the Greeks had very serious limitations in their national character from the getgo; and I dare say with him that they proved the Greeks' undoing.

Edward Gibbon and others have tracked the rise and fall of the Roman Empire, giving various theses as to what finally brought it down. Gibbon, while detailing the loss of virtue that Rome suffered in time (and the lacks of virtue it had from the beginning), looked to the rise of Christianity as the ultimate cause of pagan Rome's downfall. Others look specifically to internal and external causes, including the loss of old virtues. Actually, I believe these are two sides of the same coin. Mainstream Christianity didn't conquer Roman paganism; it absorbed and ultimately transformed it, renewing Roman virtue even as it gave Roman government and religious ceremony a new lease on life under another name. There is also the matter of overreaching itself politically and militarily, as Jack mentioned, again as connected with various kinds of loss of virtue (this time in the pragmatic sense).

Would it be too "theological" to state my belief that God ultimately is behind the rise and fall of nations? Several of the great powers you've mentioned are part of a chain of nations mentioned in biblical prophecy, each passing something of its heritage to the next. Other powers mentioned were likewise predicted to rise -- and to fall if they lost their national and personal virtue as we are doing. Even aside from this, as Jefferson put it in other words, our nation should remember that our liberties come from God and that His justice will not sleep forever if we abuse them.

Unlike Jack, perhaps, I don't think 9/11/01 was anywhere near enough of a "wakeup call" in this last respect. Not that I wish the U.S. to learn the hard way, but I perceive we seriously need a big slice of humble pie (which is preferable to eating crow any day, if you follow me).

John

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