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Date Posted: 11:02:57 07/14/01 Sat
Author: Ëåì
Subject: Re: Ùå ïðî Îâ³ä³ÿ. Äîëÿ ð³çíèõ ñêèòñüêèõ ïëåìåí.
In reply to: Òðåéòÿê 's message, "Ùå ïðî Îâ³ä³ÿ. Äîëÿ ð³çíèõ ñêèòñüêèõ ïëåìåí." on 06:21:40 07/13/01 Fri

×îìó ñàìå ç ³ðàíöÿìè? ×åðåç òîé êîð³íü? Àëå â³í ³íäîºâðîïåéñüêèé âçàãàë³, à íå ò³ëüêè ³ðàíñüêèé. Òî÷íî òàê òîé
êîð³íü ì³ã áóòè ³ ãåðìàíñüêèì, é ñëîâ"ÿíñüêèì, é íàâ³òü êåëüòñüêèì.

̳ã áóòè, çâè÷àéíî. Ãåîãðàô³÷í³ íàçâè ç öèì êîðåíåì ïîäèáóºìî ïî âñ³é ªâðîï³ ³ íàâ³òü ó ϳâí³÷í³é Àôðèö³. Ìàëî òîãî, ó ë³òîïèñàõ çáåðåãëàñÿ ãëóõà çãàäêà ïðî ÿêóñü ìîðäâèíñüêó Ïóðãàñîâó Ðóñü (íèæíÿ Îêà), ÿêà í³ÿê íå ïîâ"ÿçàíà í³ ç Êèºâîì, í³ íàâ³òü ç Ñóçäàëüùèíîþ.. Íó òàê ùî ðîáèòè? ß äóìàþ, ùî ïèòàííÿ ïðî ãåíåçó öüîãî ñëîâà ðîçâ"ÿçàòè íåìîæëèâî. Àëå íàéâ³ðîã³äí³øîþ âåðñ³ºþ ìåí³ çäàºòüñÿ ³ðàíñüêà, îñê³ëüêè ¿¿ íàéêðàùå îá´ðóíòîâàíî. Íîðìàí³ñòè ç ¿õí³ì ô³íñüêèì(!) "ðóîòñ³" âèãëÿäàþòü, ÿê ìåíå, ïðîñòî êîì³÷íî. ³ðîã³äí³øîþ âèãëÿäຠíàâ³òü ìàð´³íàëüíà êåëüòñüêà âåðñ³ÿ - ñâ³ä÷åííÿ ïðî êåëüòñüêå ïëåì"ÿ ï³ä íàçâîþ "ðóä³ ðóòåíè" ó Ãà볿.

Àëå ÿê áóòè ç òâåðäæåííÿì Íåñòîðà, ùî òåïåð òî º íàçâà ïîëÿí?

À òàê ñàìî, ÿê ³ ç ³íøèìè éîãî àâòîðèòåòíèìè òâåðäæåííÿìè - íàïðèêëàä, ùî Îëüãà íàðîäèëà Ñâÿòîñëàâà, ìàþ÷è 60 ðîê³â ) Ñõîæå, ùî òîé Íåñòîð êåðóâàâñÿ ó ñâî¿é ðîáîò³ íå ñò³ëüêè ðåàëüíîþ ³ñòîð³ºþ, ñê³ëüêè á³áëåéñüêîþ áàéêîþ ïðî Àâðààìà ³ Ñàðó) Íå òðåáà ïåðåîö³íþâàòè éîãî ïðàöþ - âîíà â³ä ïî÷àòêó áóëà áðåõëèâîþ, à ïîò³ì ùå é äîäàëèñÿ ð³çí³ ï³çí³ø³ ïîìèëêè, ïîõèáêè ³ ïðîñòî ñâ³äîì³ ïåðåêðó÷óâàííÿ ³íøèõ ïåðåïèñóâà÷³â. ßê ìîæíà ìàòè ïîä³áíå äæåðåëî çà äîñòîâ³ðíå?

Îñü! Áà÷ó, ùî òè íå ëþáèø ãåðìàíö³â, àëå ìàºø âåëèêó ñèìïàò³þ äî ³ðàíö³â. :) À ãåðìàíñüêèé âïëèâ áóâ, òàê
ñàìî ÿê ³ ³ðàíñüêèé. Àëå îñíîâó ñêëàëè, ìàáóòü, ñëîâ"ÿíè.

Ïàðäîí, çäàºòüñÿ, ïîìèëèâñÿ. Íàñïðàâä³ ó ïîëÿí òèï ïîõîâàííÿ áóâ â³äì³ííèì â³ä ãîòñüêîãî: ó ãîò³â òðóïîñïàëåííÿ (ÿê ³ ó ñëîâ"ÿí), à ó ïîëÿí (ÿê ³ ó ñêèò³â) - òðóïîïîêëàäàííÿ. Îòæå, òè çàðàíî çðàä³â) À õòî ñêëàâ îñíîâó - ìåí³ íåâ³äîìî. Ìîæå, é ñëîâ"ÿíè, à ìîæå, é í³. Ïðèíàéìí³, ïîëÿíè òî÷íî íå ñëîâ"ÿíè.

Ò³ëüêè çâåðíè óâàãó íà òàêèé öêàâèé ôàêò: ò³ "öàðñüê³ ñàðìàòè" º íàéï³âí³÷í³øèì(!) ç óñ³õ ñàðìàòñüêèõ ïëåìåí é
çàìåøêóþòü... òàìáîâñüê³ ë³ñè! :)) À ðîêñîëàíè ïîíàä Îç³âñüêèì ìîðåì ñèäÿòü.

Íó ³ íåõàé ñîá³. Ìîæå, âîíè ì³æ ñîáîþ ïåðåñâàðèëèñÿ? ) Îñü, íàïðèêëàä, â³çüìè òàêèé ôåíîìåí, ÿê ³ñíóâàííÿ ê³ëüêîõ Ðóñåé ó ñåðåäíüîâ³÷÷³, - ³ âñ³ áóëè "ãîëîâíèìè" ³ "ºä³íñòâºííî ïðàâ³ëüíèì³", òîáòî öàðñüêèìè ³íàêøå êàæó÷è) Òàêå òðàïëÿºòüñÿ äîñèòü ÷àñòî.
À ùîäî àíàëîã³é, òî êîæíà àíàëîã³ÿ øêóòèëüãàº, çâè÷àéíî æ.

À âñ³ âêàçàí³
òîáòîþ ïèñàëè ï³çí³øå, âæå çà ïàíóâàííÿ ñàðìàò³â, àëå çà ÒÐÀÄÈÖ²ªÞ íàçóâàëè òàòåøí³õ ÑÊÈÒÀÌÈ.

Íó äîáðå, íàâ³òü ÿêùî áóëà ì³æ íèìè ÿêàñü òàì ð³çíèöÿ, òî ùî ç òîãî? ßêùî îäí³ é äðóã³ áóëè ³ðàíîìîâíèìè, òî ð³çíèëèñÿ ì³æ ñîáîþ ïðèáëèçíî ÿê ð³çí³ ñëîâ"ÿíñüê³ àáî ãåðìàíñüê³ ïëåìåíà ó òó äîáó. Äëÿ òåáå ãðຠÿêóñü ðîëü òà ð³çíèöÿ ÷è òè âæå çàáóâ, ç ÷îãî ïî÷èíàëè. Òîá³ íå ñïîäîáàëîñÿ îòîòîæíåííÿ öàðñüêèõ ñêèò³â ç ðîêñîëàíàìè. Íó äîáðå, öå íå îäíå é òå ñàìå, íó òî é ùî öå ì³íÿº? Íó íåõàé ðîêñîëàíè - öå öàðñüê³ ñàðìàòè, à íå ñêèòè, íó òî é ùî?

Ùå îäèí ïðèêëàä: â³çàíò³éö³ íàïåðåäîäí³ ïàä³ííÿ Êîíñòàíòèíîïîëÿ (1453) íàçèâþòü âñ³õ ºâðîïåéö³â ºâðîïåéö³â
ÔÐÀÍÊÀÌÈ. Íàâ³òü óãîðö³â òà ³òàë³éö³â. Äëÿ íèõ âñ³ ëàòèíÿíè º ÔÐÀÍÊÀÌÈ.

Íó öå íå çîâñ³ì òî÷íà àíàëîã³ÿ: ñêèòè ç ñàðìàòàìè áóëè îäíîãî ïîõîäæåííÿ, ³ðàíîìîâíèìè, òîä³ ÿê ôðàíêè ç ³òàë³éöÿìè àáî óãîðöÿìè - äâ³ âåëèê³ ð³çíèö³.

Ìàëåíüêå óòî÷íåííÿ: ÿ ìàâ íà óâàç³ ÂÎËÜʲ (volcae). Âîëüñüêè (volsci) òî îäíå ç ëàòèíñüêèõ ïëåìåí.
Ùîäî âîëèíÿí, òî ïåðø çà âñå õîò³ëîñÿ á ñïèòàòè: ÷è çíàéäåíî íà Âîëèí³ ÿê³ñü çàëèøêè êåëüòñüêî¿ êóëüòóðè?

Øàõìàòîâ ââàæàâ, ùî Âîëèíü º ãåðìàíñüêîþ íàçâîþ, ùî ïåðåêëàäàºòüñÿ ÿê "êðà¿íà êåëüò³â". Ùîäî ìàòåð³àëüíî¿ êóëüòóðè, òî íå çíàþ.

À ÷è áóëè ñïðàâæí³ìè ñêèòàìè ñêèòè-îðà÷³, òî ÿ íåâïåâíåíèé. Ïî-ïåðøå, ¿õ â³äð³çíÿº ¿õí³é ñïîñ³á æèòòÿ, à ïî-äðóãå ¿õíÿ ïðèíàëåæí³ñòü äî äåðæàâè ñêèò³â ìîãëà áóòè ñóòî ïîë³òè÷íîþ. ϳçí³øå ò³ ñêèòè-îðà÷³, ìàáóòü óâ³éøëè äî ñàðìàòñüêîãî ñîþçó ïëåìåí, ïîä³áíî äî òîãî, ÿê ïåðåä òèì íàëåæàëè äî ñêèò³â.
 çâ"ÿçêó ç öèì çàïèòàííÿ: ùî òîá³ â³äîìî ïðî òèõ ñêèò³â-îðà÷³â?

Ò³ áóëè, î÷åâèäíî, ñëîâ"ÿíàìè-õë³áîðîáàìè, åêñïëóàòîâàíèìè âîéîâíè÷èìè êî÷îâèêàìè. Âîíè óòâîðèëè çàðóáèíåöüêó êóëüòóðó, êè¿âñüêó, à ïîò³ì çì³øàëèñÿ ç ïðåäñòàâíèêàìè ÷åðíÿõ³âñüêî¿ (ÿêà áóëà çà êóëüòóðíèì òèïîì ãîòñüêîþ, à çà àíòðîïîëîã³÷íèì - ñêèòñüêîþ ïåðåâàæíî, à âçàãàë³ ì³øàíîþ, áî íå îáìåæóâàëàñÿ ó÷àñòþ ãîò³â òà ñêèò³â), ³ íà îñíîâ³ öüîãî âñüîãî äîáðà âèíèêëè àíòè. Õòî òàì äîì³íóâàâ - òðóäíî ñêàçàòè, àëå ñàì ñêëàä º íàäçâè÷àéíî ñòðîêàòèì. Îöå ³ º ïðàùóðè óêðà¿íö³â.

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