VoyForums
[ Show ]
Support VoyForums
[ Shrink ]
VoyForums Announcement: Programming and providing support for this service has been a labor of love since 1997. We are one of the few services online who values our users' privacy, and have never sold your information. We have even fought hard to defend your privacy in legal cases; however, we've done it with almost no financial support -- paying out of pocket to continue providing the service. Due to the issues imposed on us by advertisers, we also stopped hosting most ads on the forums many years ago. We hope you appreciate our efforts.

Show your support by donating any amount. (Note: We are still technically a for-profit company, so your contribution is not tax-deductible.) PayPal Acct: Feedback:

Donate to VoyForums (PayPal):

[ Login ] [ Contact Forum Admin ] [ Main index ] [ Post a new message ] [ Search | Check update time | Archives: [1], 2 ]

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Date Posted: 22:36:31 02/16/02 Sat
Author: Patrick
Subject: Re: YOU WILL BURN!! And the worm that eats your flesh dieth not! Heathen!

>> Al Gore and I will be playing with the homosexuals in
>> Hell, have fun with Jesus


You need to honestly study the Bible bro....


I Corinthians 6:9 Greek Study:


"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators nor idolators, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." ~ 1Corinthians 6:9 KJV
The Greek words translated "effeminate" and "homosexual" do not mean effeminate or homosexual!

Historical Background

Paul's 1st letter to the Corinthians has been totally falsely twisted from the Greek to English. It says nothing at all about homosexuality only ancient idolatry. The temple of Aphrodite Pandemos, goddess of sexual fertility, dominated Acrocorinthus and employed 1000 prostitutes who served in sexual rites virtually around the clock. The greek words pornoi, arsenokitai and malikos, were no doubt promiscuously available throughout the city, a city famous for her libertine rites in the worship of idols. Acrocorinthus was the dominant geographic feature enshrouding the Corinthian skyline and rose to a great height of 1750 ft. above the city. Corinth, herself, was a metaphor of fertility and libertine sexuality among the ancient cities of Mediterrania

Greek words:

I Cor 6:9, no way refers to homosexuality. The original Greek word often quoted as sexual immorality, Paul used was "porneia" which means "a harlot for hire". In Corinth in the temples of Venus, the principal deity of Corinth, where Christians went to worship, a thousand public prostitutes were kept at public expense to glorify and act as surrogates for the fertility Gods. This sex with the pagan gods is what Paul was talking about - fornication is an admitted mistranslation and has nothing to do with gays or singles sex. This rendering reflected the bias of the translators rather than an accurate translation of Paul's words to a culture of 2000 years ago worshipping pagan sex gods (fallen angels who have sex with, and sometimes rape humans - Jude 6-7, Genesis 6, John 8).

The range of meanings for the Greeks "malakos" and "arsenokoital"in I Cor. 6:9 is very wide. In the KJV its "effeminate" and "abusers of themselves with mankind", other versions translate it as homosexuals, sodomites, or who are guilty of homosexual perversion. However there are many lexical errors in all these translations.

"Malakos"
The idea that "malakos" (soft, effeminate) links it to homosexuality ignores the Hebrew culture. Gay men were not viewed as effeminate unless they exhibited feminine characteristics in addition to being gay. Many heterosexual males were called effeminate and there is no essential connection between this and sexual preference in any ancient literature. Other greek words were used for homosexuals but never "malakos", and the other words are never used in scripture.
Boswell points out that it is frequently used in moral context as licentious. Scroggs points out it also has been used as the effeminate call-boy prostitute in pederasty, but has nothing to do with homosexuality as we know it today.
"Arsenkoites"
There is no recorded used of "Arsenkoites" prior to its appearance in 1 Cor 6:9. English translators traditionally have related it to Sodomites. There is a double irony to this since, as it is now generally recognized, Sodomites were not punished for homosexuality.
The claim this word means homosexual, defies linguistic evidence and common sense. "Koites" generally denotes licentious sexual activities, and corresponds to the active person in intercourse. The prefix "Arsen", simply means "male". It could mean a male that has sex with lots of women. Paul made up a new word. A biblical scholar when a word is unknown, looks for similar greek words to find a possible meaning. Boswell concludes Paul writing in Koine Greek, took a word from Attic Greek combined with a word from Old Testament Greek to mean the active male prostitute. These were common in the Hellenistic world in the time of Paul. They served as prostitutes for both men and women. BINGO! Remember "porneia" in the same verse that has been mistranslated fornication but was really female temple prostitutes? Guess what? Paul also is condemning the male prostitutes that also were in the temples of the sex gods!
Scroggs relates it to pederasty in the context it is used in conjunction with "malakos", the effeminate call-boy prostitute. It follows that "arsenkoites" is used to describe the adult active partner of the effeminate call-boy prostitute. Again this is a specific style of pederasty characterized by a young, passive, for-hire call boy and the adult customer. What is clear it has absolutely nothing to do with homosexuality as practiced today.
It is a serious thing to take human bias and misrepresentations and then sanctify them by wrapping them in the robes of God's authority. That is clearly Scriptural abuse and God does warn strongly those that try and add to His Word.
The Bible is the key instruction manual for Christians, but many fail to realize that the English translations of today, often reflect the bias and history of sexual repression of the Church through the ages and may have nothing to do with what God or writers were really meaning to say. God's real opinion is found by digging beneath the surface, and doing that will lessen the danger of misunderstanding, resulting in confusing our homophobic opinion with God's. God does not call today's homosexuality sin, only corrupted churches do.


Source: "Liberated Christians"
-------

I Timothy 1:9-10: Serious Study

This passage is similar to I Cor 6:9 in that the word arsenokoites is again included in the vices listed. Paul is combating Christian teaching he considers heretical.
The list of vices seems connected in the order given, with pornoi, arsenokoitai and andrapodistai grouped together. So lets study what each of these words mean.
Pornoi in normal Greek usage means a male prostitute and appears many times in literature of the time pointing to either the male who sells himself, or the slave in the brothel house. (e.g. Demosthernes, Against Adrotion 73; idem, Epistle 4,; Aristophanes, Plutus, lines 153-157 etc
Hellenistic Jewish and early Christian usage, however, skews the apparent straightforward definition. The word does not appear in any Septuagint book except the post Old Testament Sirach 23:16-18. I does appear a few times in the New Testament.

The problem here is that the word in Sirach and in the New Testament seems to have a meaning broader than "male prostitute" and is usually taken by scholars to refer to sexual crimes in general. But this assumption may be due to lack of awareness of the prominence of the male prostitute in Greco-Roman society which may have misled some away from it's more narrow original usual meaning.
Within the text of 1 Tim there is no reason to assume it meant anything more than male prostitute. The juxtaposition of pornos with arsenokoites, however, should give pause before translating the word in a more general fashion. There is no reason why the same relationship between malakos and arsenokoites, that is, between the youth who is used and the adult who uses him, could not also pertain to the two words in 1 Timothy. Pornos may effectively function in relations to arsenokoites in precisely the same way as malakos does in 1 Corinthians
This possibility is further supported by the third word: andropodistes. This word means "kidnapper" or "slave dealer". While in our culture these definitions carry differences in meaning, in the culture of the first century they would be synonymous. One reason a handsome boy or beautiful girl would be kidnapped is to provide slaves for brothel houses. Thus the kidnapper or slave dealer is the one responsible for the pornos, who is used by arsenokoites. Should "kidnapper" not be related to the preceding words in some fashion, it would be unique in this list, since all the other words have some connection with a previous or following word.
The three words would thus fit together and could be translated: "male prostitutes, males who lie with them, and slave dealers who procure them."

If we reflect on the Septuagint it makes sense. There is the injunction against arsenokoites (Lev 18,20), pornos (Deut 23:18), and the kidnapper (Exod 4:16; Deut 24:7). Since arsenokoites must be a Hellenistic Jewish coinage, and since the vice list here does not seem dependent on that in 1 Cor 6:9-10, it may indeed be likely that this list originated in the Hellenistic Jewish circles.
Therefore it may be concluded that the vice list in 1 Timothy may not be condemnatory of homosexuality in general, not even pederasty in general, but that specific form of pederasty which consists of the enslaving of boys for sexual purposes, and the use of these boys by adult males. - Now, God's condemntion of those sick people is just! God condemning loving homosexuals to hell because of their orientation is nonsense (!) - it is a false doctrine of Mastema; and the Catholic church is commiting a great sin!


Alleged references to homosexuality in I Corinthians and I Timothy are the inventions of anti-gay translators. They are not in the original Greek texts.
----------------------

LEVITICUS 18:22 and 20:13:

These two verses from Leviticus well illustrate the difficulty of using even ancient legal texts to construct "ethical absolutes" for the modern world. First, we need to ask who is addressed (historical context) and precisely what is prohibited (or commanded); second, we must ask why (the meaning of the law and the code in which it occurs); third, we must consider how the text relates to the total context and message of the Scriptures; and finally, we must face up to the cultural and/or scientific limitations of the text and inquire about its possible relevance/applicability for the modern world (where conditions often are radically different from the ancient context). The first supposed clobber text in Leviticus says:

"You (masculine singular) shall not lie with a man as with a woman; it is abomination" (18:22).

Electronic preachers who exploit this verse for fund-raising (their best shot, now that no one is worried about saving us from the "communist menace") can count on listeners to keep their TVs turned on, their minds turned off, and their Bibles closed. Any listener bothering to read the entire chapter, or the whole book, probably will be shocked -- without even layng a hand on the TV set for miraculous healing!


Does Leviticus Matter?

Because these two verses in Leviticus (18:22 and 20:13) have been used more than any other Bible texts to condemn and reject gay and lesbian people, the following material is given to help you think objectively about traditional abusive use of the Bible regarding homosexuals.
Now if you are absolutely convinced that Leviticus condemns gays and do not believe that it refers to heterosexuals in the baal fertility ritual then read what else Leviticus condemns.
The use of Leviticus to condemn and reject homosexuals is obviously a hypocritical selective use of the Bible against gays and lesbians. If Christians today insist on using Leviticus to condemn homosexuality, then they are also bound by the other rules and rituals described in Leviticus. Nobody today tries to keep the laws in Leviticus.


The Holiness Code also endorses polygamy and requires Saturday to be reserved as the Sabbath. Obviously, it is unfair to use these passages to condemn homosexuality, while ignoring the fact that most Christians do not follow the rest of the rules and rituals outlined in the Holiness Code of Leviticus.

Leviticus also prohibits the eating of pork, gettign tattoos, shaving (!), etc.

Read Leviticus 23 to see the detailed regulations concerning "complete rest" on the Sabbath day and demands of animal sacrifices to be carried out according to exact instructions. Leviticus 18:19 forbids a husband from having sex with his wife during her menstrual period. Leviticus 19:19 forbids mixed breeding of various kinds of cattle, sowing various kinds of seeds in your field or wearing "a garment made from two kinds of material mixed together." Leviticus 19:27 demands that "you shall not round off the side-growth of your heads, nor harm the edges of your beard." The next verse forbids "tattoo marks on yourself." Most people do not even know that these laws are in the Bible and are demanded equally with all the others.

Why don't fundamentalists organize protests and picket seafood restaurants, oyster bars, church barbecue suppers, all grocery stores, barber shops, tattoo parlors, and stores that sell suits and dresses made of mixed wool, cotton, polyester, and other materials? All of these products and services are "abominations" in Leviticus. When have you heard a preacher condemn the demonic abomination of garments that are made of mixed fabrics?

The warning is given in Leviticus 26:14-16 that "If you do not obey me and do not carry out all of these commandments, if instead, you reject my statutes, and if your soul abhors my ordinances so as not to carry out all my commandments ...I, in turn, will do this to you: I will appoint over you a sudden terror, consumption and fever that shall waste away the eyes and cause the soul to pine away; also, you shall sow your seed uselessly, for your enemies shall eat it up." The list of punishments and terrors that will come from not keeping all of the commandments continues through many verses.

If you have been led to misuse Leviticus and other parts of the Bible in order to condemn and hate and reject people, you are on the wrong path. Jesus quoted only one passage from Leviticus: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (19:18). Jesus used Leviticus to teach love. Many false teachers use Leviticus and other writings to condemn, humiliate and destroy. I know which approach is truly Christian. Jesus never condemned homosexuals or even mentioned anything that could be taken as a reference to sexual orientation.

Any charge against Gays and Lesbians based on the life and teachings of Jesus has to be dismissed for a lack of evidence!


Many people have answered the argument that most of the "abominations" in Leviticus referred to food by saying that the people back then knew that pork was unhealthy, and that is why pigs were declared to be unclean. If you follow that logic, you would declare anything that is unhealthy to be an "abomination." We know that cigarettes, alcoholic beverages, fat food and many other things are unhealthy; so why are they not also called "abominations" and condemned by the rabid Bible literalists with protests and pickets against cigarette machines, all liquor stores and bars, all fast food outlets, and any store that sells anything that is unhealthy? The reason is simple. The use of Leviticus to condemn and reject anyone is impossible to justify in the light of the facts.

The use of Leviticus to condemn and reject homosexuals is absurd and makes literal legalistic bible based religion look ridiculous.



Lev. 18:22 and 20:13 are part of the Holeness Code. The Holiness Code of Leviticus was written primarily as a ritual manual for Israel's priests. The Holiness code is no longer in affect (Colossians 2:8-23, Gal. 3, Mark 7:18-23). Leviticus' laws are not applicable to Christians today, any more than are the other 613 laws which make up the Jewish Holiness Code. It is less than genuine for a Christian teleminister or theologian to imply that these verses are still valid for the beliefs and conduct of Christians, while stating that the remaining laws of the Holiness Code are not applicable.


There are over 600 individual "laws" in the Levitical code, the breaking of anyone of which would make the sinner unclean and unacceptable to God. It is an abomination to eat pork, etc. The law is no longer in effect and its purpose was to show that man could never follow it.


Furthermore, the entire book of Leviticus is considered completely irrelevant even by Orthodox Judaism!


Be fruitful and Multiply?

During the days of Leviticus and the Holiness code of Israel, the Israelites didn't number that high in population whilst they were surrounded by enemies who numbered greatly - Homosexuality would not allow them to "be fruitful and multiply", and that would cause some problems for them.

It would't of been the actual activity that was frowned upon, it would of been what homosexuality prevented (be fruitful and multiply).

Nobody today tries to keep the command to be fruitful and multiply or the other laws of the Holiness code of Israel; which is no longer in affect (Gal. 3, Colossians 2:8-23, Mark 7:18-23).


What Leviticus really says:

The background of Leviticus is important to understand. The people are being told not to act like the "pagans". This is also the format Paul uses in Romans. "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination." These words occur solely in the Holiness Code of Leviticus, a ritual manual for Israel's priests. This prohibition of supposedly homosexual acts follows after the prohibition of the idolatrous sexuality of worshipping Molech, whose cult included male cult prostitutes and bestiality. Lev 18 is specifically designed to distinguish the Jews from the pagans who worshipped the multiple gods of fertility cults. It also is included with other Mosaic laws such as required killing kids who curse their parents, the death penalty for picking up sticks or doing other work on the Sabbath, and under the law, slave-beating was a protected legal right!
From a Jewish prospective, the commandments given at Sinai, including those of Leviticus (in Hebrew Jews simply name a book after the first word that appears - "V'yikra" - which means "then he spoke") were given to the Jewish people. Since they were only commanded to Jews, no one who is not Jewish need worry about obeying them. Judaism holds God taught basic laws to all humanity before Sinai (no murder, rape, etc), but that the more specific laws such as in Leviticus, apply only to Jews.
Lev 20:13 is giving the penalties for the Lev 18:22 "abomination" or in the Hebrew "toevah" Unlike what the English translation implies, toevah did not usually signify something intrinsically evil, but something ritually unclean for Jews. Eating pork, shellfish, lobster, eating meat 3 days old, trimming beards, etc is just as much an "abomination". It is used throughout the OT to designate those Jewish sins which involve ethnic contamination or idolatry. In many other OT verses it simply means idolatry. Lev 18 is specifically designed to distinguish the Jews from the pagans among whom they had been living. The prohibition of supposedly homosexual acts follows after the prohibition of idolatrous sexuality of worshipping Molech, whose cult included male cult prostitutes and bestiality.
Chapter 20 begins with a prohibition of sexual idolatry almost identical with this, and like 18, its manifest purpose is to elaborate a system of ritual "cleanliness" whereby the Jews will be distinguished from neighboring peoples. This was also the interpretation given by later Jewish commentaries such as those of Maimonides. Boswell also references much Jewish historic discussion about the non practice of the death penalty which is also mandated for violating the Sabbath, cursing one's parents and many infractions listed in the Talmud.

A further evidence of this is toevah is used throughout the O.T. to designate those Jewish sins which involve ethnic contamination or idolatry and very frequently occurs as part of the stock phrase "toevah ha-goyim" "the uncleanness of the Gentiles" (e.g., 2 (4) Kings 16:3).
The significance of toevah become clear when your realize the other Hebrew word "zimah" could have been used - if that was what the authors intended. Zimah means, not what is objectionable for religious or cultural reasons, but what is wrong in itself. It means an injustice, a sin. For example, in condemnation of temple prostitutes involving idolatry, "toevah" is employed (e.g. 1 (3) Kings 14:24), while in prohibitions of prostitution in general a different word "zimah," appears (e.g. Lev. 19:29). Often but yes, not always, "toevah" specifically means "idol" (E.g., Isa. 44:19; Ezek 7:20, 16:36; Jer. 16:18; cf. Deut. 7:25-26).
Clearly, then, Leviticus does not say that a man to lie with man is wrong or a sin. Rather, it is a ritual violation, an "uncleanness"; it is something "dirty" ritualistically. Lev 18 is specifically designed to distinguish the Jews from the pagans among whom they had been living, or would live, as its opening remark make clear - "After the doings of the land of Egypt, .....etc and the prohibition of supposedly homosexual acts follows immediately upon a prohibition of idolatrous sexuality (the female temple prostitutes worshipping the pagan fertility gods) (often mistranslated fornication but a obvious mistranslation in the proper context).
This conclusion finds further support in the Septuagint where the toevah is translated with the Greek word "bdelygma". Fully consistent with the Hebrew, the Greek bdelygma means a ritual impurity. Once again, other Greek words were available, like "anomia", meaning a violation of law or a wrong or a sin. That word could have been used to translate toevah. In fact, in some cases anomia was used to translate toevah- when the offense in question was not just a ritual impurity but also a real wrong of an injustice, like offering child sacrifice or having sex with another man's wife, in violation of his property rights. The Greek translators could have used anomia; they used bdelygma.
Evidently, the Jews of that pre-Christian era simply did not understand Leviticus to forbid male-male sex because it is wrong in itself. They understood Leviticus to forbid male-male sex because it offended ancient Jewish sensitivities: it was dirty and Canaanite-like, it was unjewish. And that is exactly how they translated the Hebrew text into Greek before Christ. It makes no statement about the morality of homosexual acts as such. In today's society similar unclean acts might include picking ones nose, burping or passing gas.


Summary of Leviticus:

1. Even IF Leviticus did comdemn gays, it would only have been to fullfill the commdand to be fruitful and multilpy; that command is not in affect anymore. It's always important to understand the historical context.

2. Based on the word used for abomination in Leviticus, it is obvious that Leviticus was NOT condemning homosexual orientation.

3. Whatever Leviticus was condemning, it does not matter as the Holiness code is no longer in affect.

Source: "Liberated Christians"

-------------

That poor homosexual who wrote to you thinks she is going to hell because of your bad translation and the churches hogwash! How shameful and sad! I hope Yahweh shows her the truth. I hope you will study before you use such a terrible translation.

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]
[ Contact Forum Admin ]

Forum timezone: GMT-8
VF Version: 3.00b, ConfDB:
Before posting please read our privacy policy.
VoyForums(tm) is a Free Service from Voyager Info-Systems.
Copyright © 1998-2019 Voyager Info-Systems. All Rights Reserved.