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Date Posted: 09:33:28 04/04/02 Thu
Author: Denise-BRK
Subject: Take a honest look at all sides of a issue.

I am allowed to cross post this to the ABBA board only. Please if anyone else would like to pass this on contact
aiveel@hotmail.com to ask permission.

I felt this post would be good for others to view the otherside of this issue. The other board it was on a lot of people will not visit and it gives some good insite on issues. Please take the time to read and understand what is being stated.

Hello, community

This so-called “poll”(we did not have this poll listed on our site-from Denise) is just another one of a series of dishonorable attempts and mudslinging tactics used to discredit reputation of a well-respected trainer and breeder, Alex Vyatkin of Red Star by ONE person, owner of the Banter. These efforts included a shameless public gloating over this SF terrible tragedy as well as this new low – this misleading “poll” and banning members/deleting posts of those who have anything positive to say about Red Star and its owner.

This “poll” question is twisted and is based on a complete untruth. At the time Karma was sold by Red Star to Mr. Harris of Stygian Kennels, Mr. Harris was not at all a breeder of anything, not a “mass puppy producer” as Matt Sanchez presents it – at the time, in 1997, he was just a guy with two dogs he never before bred, wanting to join the working club and to participate in working events. Again, the twisting of facts is just an attempt to "drive home" a point that is not based on facts, but on attempts to discredit a person.

As far as Red Star goes, and what it does for the functionality and public acceptance of the Presa breed, not one other Presa breeder has done more to shed a positive light on personal protection-trained dogs and to contribute to the preservation of the breed's functionality then RS.

As a friend and colleague of Alex's, I can tell you that

RS WALKS the WALK, and practices what it preaches.

I do not know of anybody else in the breed that does this much to promote responsible ownership and to show people how safe and reliable personal protection-trained Presas are.

Alex and his wife Irina have dedicated their lives to the betterment of the breed, and what they do is only commendable and unfortunately, very uncommon in rare breeds overall.

They contribute to the cause of multiplying the ranks of responsible protection dog owners through:

1. through creation of and strict adherence to a BST system, designed to weed out unstable and unsound specimens as well as to recognize the ones of exceptional working value;

2. by providing life-time support to all RS customers, including accepting on average of 50% of pups produced to come back for training and evaluation; free puppy socialization lessons; by being always available by phone or in person for any questions and help requests;

3. by supporting and contributing to the cause of working dogs through a publicly accessible BB, free bi-annual public working seminars; publicly campaigning for responsible protection dog ownership through participation in many working dog events;

3. by ensuring that no RS bred dogs end up in shelters and rescues - there have been none to-date.

How can a person of this much real value to the breed and to the world of working dogs can be unjustly pursued and taunted in such a dishonorable fashion for something that happened outside of any realm of control he could exercise in the SF case, is beyond my understanding.

Sorry for such a long post, and please, understand that I have no intentions of bragging (this kennels dogs' achievements speak loud and clear for Alex), but since I observe other explanations as to the questions asked being deleted by the board administration, I only wrote the above in hopes that those who read and contribute to the Banter will have a chance to review the abovementioned facts and draw their own conclusions as to what's going on here.

I couldn’t post this on the Banter, as I am banned as well as are other friends and colleagues of Alex’s.

I attach an original post by another working dog enthusiast, which was deleted by Matt Sanchez from the banter almost immediately after it has appeared as well as a public statement made by Alex Vyatkin of Red Star in response to questions of other Banter members, as well as their feedback.

Thank you for your attention.
Respectfully,
Vio

The relevant posts follow.
The following was deleted.

This board has crumbled to an all time low...
Posted by Jenny Cousino on April 1, 2002, 4:29 pm , in reply to "Re: 20 years... Luck, Contracts, and Dogs bred for Manwork?"
User logged in as: Jenny Cousino
205.188.192.184

...using someone's tragedy as a way to bring down a breeder you don't like.
Alex is probably in the top 1% of decent breeders.

How many breeders do you know that keep in touch with their buyers for life?

How many breeders do you know that turn down most buyers?

Why do you keep harping on a guy who is just about as far removed from the SF tragedy as you are?

He sold a dog to a guy that he checked out thoroughly. The buyer bred the b###h and sold a pup to a lady with a nice farm who seemed decent. The dog ending up with the felons and the lawyers are not Alex's fault. It's like SIX DEGREES OF SEPARATION: 1. Alex/Red Star 2. The guy who bought the b###h 3. The farm lady who bought Bane 4. The felons 5. The lawyers Okay, five degrees, but you get the idea.

I'm not sure what problems you have with Alex. I don't know him well. I saw his dog, Cona, perform at the MidState Challenge ABNA show last month. He scored nearly perfect both in obedience and protection and won the tournament. When they were announcing the winner my ten year old niece, Ashley, and her 10 year old buddy were hugging and kissing the 125 pound Cona's face. I had sponsored the trophy for the tournament in memory of my dog, Buck, who passed away. People were surrounding Alex congratulating him, but he came way over to where I was putting my dog in his crate to ask me about Buck. He wanted to know about the dog whose memory the trophy was sponsored for. I gave him a picture of Buck which he put with the trophy to take home. As I said, I don't know Alex well, but I never expected the winner of the trophy I sponsored to care about who it was sponsored for. So far everything I have ever seen Alex do or say has been nothing but honorable.

I stopped posting on this board after 98% of the posters insisted that "gametesting" is required to determine the quality of a dog--regardless of your goals with the dog. Even the moderator of this board seems to share this view. I got a lot of e-mails and feedback in person from people who are against this concept, but yet on this board everyone seems to be for it.

This board used to have several new threads of meaningful discussion every day. Now weeks go by without much discussion at all. I guess a poll aimed at a specific person is supposed to liven things up.

The following was an original inquiry on the subject of Bane's breeding from one of the Banter members.


What is Red Star Kennels reaction to all this?
Posted by Rejeo on March 22, 2002, 8:58 am , in reply to "Guilty on all 5 counts"
User logged in as: Jake
205.188.200.175

After reading one of Alex Vyatkin's latest posts, I get the feeling that he feels betrayed and misjudged. As a Presa breeder, he is subject to the backlash of this case FIRSTHAND. Of course, not making matters any easier, he has admitted that a Red Star Presa was in Bane's pedigree - Bane's dam was bred by Redstar Kennels. If he would be kind enough as to answer some important questions, he may "clear the air" once and for all. Here are the questions:
1)What were the circumstances behind Bane's breeding?

2)Did Red Star sell Bane's dam to a customer/s that MISREPRESENTED themseleves? or

3)Did Red Star mistakenly let someone of QUESTIONABLE character have access to Bane's dam for breeding purposes?

4)Was Bane's dam mentally UNSTABLE (like Bane seemed to be) as many have hinted? Had she been culled (if she was unstable) wouldn't this problem been avoided altogether?

I would hope that Alex (or one of his associates) would answer these questions, if not on this forum, then on his.

Personally, I'm not going to question the integrity of Alex's life's work. He credentials are first class. In fact, they're beyond first class...they're WORLD class. He has made MANY enemies in the Presa world, for his crticisms of Manuel Curto -"the PRESA GOD". I guess there's something to be said for diplomacy and tact. Still, you've got to respect Alex. He talks the talk and walks the walk. He is a man of conviction who PRACTICES what he PREACHES. Simply put, his work ethic is superb.

When all is said and done, Alex is a HERO for the working presa community. But like all heros, he is subject to making mistakes. Should a few mistakes take precendent over his many great accomplishments. I would hope not. What is that saying..."To ERR' is HUMAN, but to FORGIVE is DIVINE."

This case was an important lesson for dog breeders and dog owners alike. Hopefully those who breed and own powerful dogs will be more responsible for their actions and not take certain matters too lightly.

Regards

The reply followed right away.

Fwd: From Alex Vyatkin of Red Star Kennel To Rejeo and all
Posted by Vio on March 22, 2002, 12:48 pm
User logged in as: Vio
206.148.108.196

From Alex Vyatkin of Red Star Kennel

Hello Rejeo and all !


I regret being unable to personally post a reply to you in regards to your inquiries.

Among the reasons (all of them personal) is dishonorable public taunting of me and my kennel by one owner of this board. I am still stunned at how gloatingly and absurdly my person and my dogs were blamed for that terrible accident by this man elsewhere on the Internet
I’ve asked a person I respect to post my reply to you here, on the Banter. I hope you can respect that. Furthermore, if you or anyone have anymore questions, please don’t hesitate to ask on the Working Presa board at
http://pub57.ezboard.com/bworkingpresacanario


You asked:


1)What were the circumstances behind Bane's breeding?

Bane was bred by James Harris of Stygian kennels in Chicago.

2)Did Red Star sell Bane's dam to a customer/s that MISREPRESENTED themselves? or
3)Did Red Star mistakenly let someone of QUESTIONABLE character have access to Bane's dam for breeding purposes?

We bred Karma. She was one of two pups we kept out of Turco/Bengal litter. She was intensely socialized with strangers, kids, other dogs, cats, etc.. Temperament tested by us and other trainers, had two prelim “good” hips X-rays done by the time of seven months, when James contacted us with inquiry about her . He traveled to our kennel from Chicago. He brought pictures of his other Presas. Told us about his plans to be involved with a working club, asked us if we wanted to host a Working Presa competition at his 20 acres facility, took measurements of agility equipment to built the same at his place … We had no reasons not to trust him.

4)Was Bane's dam mentally UNSTABLE (like Bane seemed to be) as many have hinted? Had she been culled (if she was unstable) wouldn't this problem been avoided altogether?

Absolutely not! As I indicated before, she passed all our tests with flying colors and was one of the best we bred at the time.
ANY dog found to have temperament issues have NOT and will NEVER leave our kennel to live with people. Not as a pet, not as a wash out , nor for what ever other reason.
All - Karma’s mother, father and littermates were publicly temperament tested.
Her grandparents Arbaco and Reeba were featured on the tape “ Dogs that Protect” , where they were doing protection work as well as showcased playing with kids in the neighborhood.
Karma’s father Turco is a first ever Presa to win DSO PP tourney back in 1998 with a 399 score. I think you can agree that competing on such level will require a stable dog, plus him and his offspring has been competing and judged by many different judges. Karma’s sister Cheetah has produces many great dogs, including first Irondog titled Presa Tianna ( OFA ”excellent” , CGC, ATTS, Personal protection trained, certified Therapy dog, ARBA champion…)
I think some people who have seen her competing at Irondog can attest to her character and disposition.
Red Star stands behind Karma and will be willing to let anyone interested to test her lines - all those dogs are doing great as family pets even in the old retired age.

Someone said we are hiding fact that we bred Karma from media. That is a false statement. I have TV interviews on the tape where we openly discuss Karma’s line and letting TV reporters to play with Turco. We are proud of our dogs and don’t have anything to hide.

I have had Bane’s brother sent here for training. Dog was social with people and other dogs. Owner took great care of him. We finished obedience and agility and tested him for protection. I was shocked to seethe results! Dog became hectic, overly aggressive, and almost hysterical with fear and rage. You could see his conscious mind slipping away, him no longer being able to comprehend his surroundings. He took a bite right away but transferred it all over a bite suit, trying to jump to my face. He ripped pair of gloves I was wearing , trying to get at the end and into the sleeve. I pushed him harder, just to see what the hell is he doing, he jumped away , but then bit me from behind. Crazy! I have never seen anything like that with any of our dogs. Ever.

We rejected the dog for any further training, and I had one serious talk with his owner . I tried to explain what happened and gave him recommendation to never ever work this dog in protection and avoid any and all confrontations he can ever encounter. Guy couldn’t believe what I told him. He said dog always was sweet and friendly. That is another example of how a simple, non stressful CGC type of testing isn’t good enough to see a true nature of the dog!

I couldn’t figure out where that behavior coming from. Then I started going through old posts (3 years old) on the Presa BB and found info about that dog’s father side. Apparently few of these dogs were reported uncontrollably and often without a warrant aggressive, which at that time no one paid attention to. Recently, more info became available through Dogo Canario Club of America breed rescue. Guess what?
About 50 dogs on the father side were turned to animal shelters, many due to an uncontrollable aggression. Half of them had to be put down due to a same reason.

You make your own conclusions.

I have deepest respect to any and all of you who work their dogs, regardless of breed.
You give me reason for improving myself, and hell of a good reason to enjoy what I do for living.
I enjoy meeting you people on the competition field and looking forward seeing you again.

Regards

It was much to everybody's satisfaction.

Finally some answers....
Posted by Rejeo on March 22, 2002, 2:04 pm , in reply to "Fwd: From Alex Vyatkin of Red Star Kennel To Rejeo and all"
User logged in as: Jake
64.12.105.172

Thanks for the reply. Like I said, I wanted you to clear the air...put all rumors to rest. In my book, you have done just that.
Take Care

Forgive the longevity, but I feel that you should have all the facts before being sucked into something which will be used to attack a real asset to the Presa breed like Alex.

Respectfully,
Vio - IAPC officer, Working Presa Forum moderator, responsible owner of personal protection trained dog, CGC.

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