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Date Posted: 21:37:47 04/03/03 Thu
Author: Safe Club Sunil
Subject: Re: A moment of seriousness
In reply to: het up. ( I do like mumcuss though) 's message, "Re: A moment of seriousness" on 12:44:36 04/03/03 Thu

>I would however be very wary about accepting all
>information on Israel from these marches as the given
>truth, I don't think you are going to get a balanced
>view there.

Thats true. A lot of the information at the march is good, but just as one-sided as mainstream media. But its a good starting point and you can pick up a lot of things. Like stuff on the petro dollar and this war. Iraq wanted to switch to Euros, so do Iran. I don't understand it yet, but that came from some guy handing out small photocopies he'd made.

> One has to think about who is puting the
>information accross, is it from an extremist
>element,can you be sure it is reliable. There is alot

There's always a reason people do something, so there's always a motive. Knowing the motive behind the editor always a good idea. But really with the internet, if you want to look into something, its not that hard.

With the Israel thing, I found out it was $6billion of aid a year, then I looked around and found that its $6billion direct and between $3-$5billion indirect subsidies. Then in the news you could see Israel asking for £12billion this year and I believe they got it. I don't take any source as gospel. With the internet comes the danger of plagarism too though, so the same lie can be re-quoted around several sites and gives the impression that many sources have collaborated it.

>of passion at the marches but passion doesn't really
>mean you are going to get a truthful non biased
>account or 'fact'.

But they're often no less reliable than a newspaper or tv.

>Also SWP are one of the biggest factions on the
>coalition, they have a huge amount of publicity and
>stalls available. I think you are right that most
>people go not because they are attached to SWP agenda,
>but isn't it important to know what that is as they
>have a massive hand in organising themarches (as a
>large part of the Anti war coalition)?

I see what you're saying, but at the same time I don't think they pushed their agenda on it too much. Clearly they have reasons to be there, but I think the majority of those reasons in this case would combine with the marchers in general. It was quite clear what the march was about and I don't think the SWP could start using the marches to push different agendas and I don't think they could claim that their support had increased as a result of them either.

> Also are you really tring to defend Milosovic, did
>you see the images of the concentration camps???? I

To be completely honest I haven't seen anything about the concentration camps and I don't know anyone who has.
Stuff like this:
http://kosovo99.tripod.com/judgemen.htm

Is all I can find. I'll try and look it up at some point. I didn't really understand the Yugoslavia situation, but I read a lot of things questioning the genocide.

>am not trying to defend America, i agree they have
>done some awful things but I don't think that means we
>shouldn't recognise Milosovich's crimes.

No, thats true. But Milosovich's crimes are regularly shown to us and held up as examples. You need a counter-balance to show that the people who hold up these crimes are just as guilty and are only setting that example to further their own ends.

>In terms of anti semitic literature, I saw literature
>that talked about how the Jews have always been evil,
>and justifications for Jihad against them. There were
>quotations from ancient scholers so as to some how
>justify this blatent anti-semitism.

Ok. Then that would be text-book anti-semitism then! As vile as it is, I don't think that would really convert many people. And again, you can't discredit so many people when so few have an extremist agenda.

>An initial opposition to war because peace is
>important is one reason why so many people go to the
>marches, not because they believe in some wars and not
>others. This is what makes me feel uncomfortable. It
>is easy to get swept up in the passion of it all, but
>just because you don't support the organisers it
>doesn't mean you want a war. Its more complex than
>that. I can not tolerate racism, homophobia and anti
>semitism, so to walk side by side with people who have
>these views makes it very problematic. I also believe
>that every person has the right to practice whatever
>religion they wish to and a better understanding and
>dialogue between those religions is a good thing, I
>would never want to wipe away anyone's culural and
>religious heritage so that they become unfoirm
>socialist workers who all adhere to exactly the same
>ideas.

I think you're over-estimating the tole of the SWP in the marches. But I do understanding what you're saying. However, even if you have a distaste for the SWP (which I actually do as well) its the lesser of two evils. And right now, the US is much more dangerous than the SWP.

Sunil

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