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Date Posted: 13:54:54 01/22/01 Mon
Author: Timothy Bell
Author Host/IP: NoHost / 195.214.181.49
Subject: Re: The problem
In reply to: Inconito 's message, "The problem" on 08:47:37 03/06/00 Mon

Dear Messr.Nonsense,

You either have no statistical knowledge about population of various nations at any time of history or even now, nor you have a poor math.
Let me give you some figures (won't take long)

1)Before 1915, number of Armenians in the west Europe was less than 100.000, and in US is about 50.000.Today ,the population of Rep.of Armenia is 3.450.000,and even by 2% rate of increase in population, you will come out about the followings:

1915-1916 2000-2001
Europe: 100.000 1.100.000
US : 60.000 1.300.000
Ottoman Emp.(*): 2.500.000 350.000 Turkey
approx.Armenia: 1.200.000 3.450.000
other countries: 250.000 380.000
Australia : -- 170.000
------------ ------------
Total : 4.110.000 7.750.000
you say genoc: 1.500.000
------------ ------------
left : 2.610.000 7.750.000

Is there any group of people who increased their popoulation by 3 times in 80 years. We,even Turks like having babies couldn't do that.This is about 3% pa increase in population.We should ask UN to register and announcethat the Armenian women are the most productive people world ever seen.
(*) your figure.
please be realistic.

2)Suppose Ottoman Empire made this genicide, where the hell world was for 60 years, until Armenian terorist group(Asala) came out into scene.Who can ignore such volume, such violence for 60 years,if it was correct!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

3)No Turkish individuals nor any Turkish government denies a fight or local disturbances happened in 1915-16 with Armenian origin people of Ottoman Empire citizens.
BUt if you have just a little idea about the history, you can notice these years:
1915-1916 : What was going on ?
WORLD WAR ONE

Ottoman Emp+Germany+Austria vs UK+France+Italy+Russia
The biggest enemy was Greece who had their independency just 30 years before the War I.The Greeks occupied 1/3 of Turkey, while more than 3.000.000 people living in these lands.
If there was a necessity to make a genocide, it should have been done to Greeks.
What,the Armenians in eastern Anatolia did ?(Not the Armenians in Istanbul or Izmir, but those in the midland and east) ????????
They helped the wild occupiers, helped French and English troops,and TOGETHER THEY STARTED MASSACRE.
The reply was obvious.Peoples were killed in their own land by occupiers and backstabber citizens.Mosques bombed,ect,ect.
The reaction was natural,,,.
The whole country in worl war, and Our Armenian people are killing Our Muslim people. WHAAAAHHHHH !!!!

4)Ottoman Emp is fighting against 9 countries in 7 fronts.One of them is srong Russia.The Empire sent 80.000 troops to Russian border in winter.They need food, water, ect.Their road was cut by Armenians,reported to Russians,surrounded by Russians with the help of Armenians:
Do You Know What Happened: 80.0000 Turkish troop FROZEN.

5)TODAY, 65 million Turks of REPUPLIC OF TURKEY are ready to cover the past,despite of our loss of 76 diplomats killed by Armenian terorists in 1974-1982, and wish to build fruitfull relations with the people living in Rep.of Armenia.

6)Those Armenians who live outside Armenia are doing the worst thing to your (!) race,to the ones who live in Armenia. Because, you are not real Armenians,
YOU ARE NOT ANY MORE CARE ARMENIANS
You are rich, whealty,never go to Erivan, your ideal world is just money and money.This is why ,before in every local or general election of any US or European country your face come out, then dissapears.
You pump the parties ,they pump to you by this phenomena,later on you get government tender business, make more money.
BUT YOUR ARMENIANS SUFFER IN REP.of ARMENIA.

7)Today, the relation between Rep.of Armenia and Turkey is still very cold.Those who live in Armenia knows and want to built close relations with Turkey ;
because, Turkey is the only window, opening to west world for Armenia.
Under the current circumstances of Russia and Iran, Turkey which is 24 times of Armenia in every criteria, is the only survival.

If you are a real Armenian, or supporter of Armenians, please kindly think once more for future.

But if you are a real French, real British,real fanatic American , then, it is obvious you will be negative all the time.







>FACT SHEET: ARMENIAN GENOCIDE
>KNIGHTS OF VARTAN ARMENIAN RESEARCH CENTER
>The University of Michigan-Dearborn
>Dearborn, MI 48128
>
>
>The Armenian Genocide was carried out by the "Young
>Turk" government of the Ottoman Empire in 1915-1916
>(with subsidiaries to 1922-23). One and a half million
>Armenians were killed, out of a total of two and a
>half million Armenians in the Ottoman Empire.
>Most Armenians in America are children or
>grandchildren of the survivors, although there are
>still many survivors amongst us.
>
>Armenians all over the world commemorate this great
>tragedy on April 24, because it was on that day in
>1915 when 300 Armenian leaders, writers, thinkers and
>professionals in Constantinople (present day Istanbul)
>were rounded up, deported and killed. Also on that day
>in Constantinople, 5,000 of the poorest Armenians were
>butchered in the streets and in their homes.
>
>The Armenian Genocide was masterminded by the Central
>Committee of the Young Turk Party (Committee for Union
>and Progress [Ittihad ve Terakki Cemiyet, in Turkish])
>which was dominated by Mehmed Talât [Pasha], Ismail
>Enver [Pasha], and Ahmed Djemal [Pasha]. They were a
>racist group whose ideology was articulated by Zia
>Gökalp, Dr. Mehmed Nazim, and Dr. Behaeddin Shakir.
>
>The Armenian Genocide was directed by a Special
>Organization (Teshkilati Mahsusa) set up by the
>Committee of Union and Progress, which created special
>"butcher battalions," made up of violent criminals
>released from prison.
>
>Some righteous Ottoman officials such as Celal,
>governor of Aleppo; Mazhar, governor of Ankara; and
>Reshid, governor of Kastamonu, were dismissed for not
>complying with the extermination campaign. Any common
>Turks who protected Armenians were killed.
>
>The Armenian Genocide occurred in a systematic
>fashion, which proves that it was directed by the
>Young Turk government.
>
>First the Armenians in the army were disarmed, placed
>into labor battalions, and then killed.
>
>Then the Armenian political and intellectual leaders
>were rounded up on April 24, 1915, and then killed.
>
>Finally, the remaining Armenians were called from
>their homes, told they would be relocated, and then
>marched off to concentration camps in the desert
>between Jerablus and Deir ez-Zor where they would
>starve and thirst to death in the burning sun.
>
>On the march, often they would be denied food and
>water, and many were brutalized and killed by their
>"guards" or by "marauders." The authorities in
>Trebizond, on the Black Sea coast, did vary this
>routine: they loaded Armenians on barges and sank them
>out at sea.
>
>The Turkish government today denies that there was an
>Armenian genocide and claims that Armenians were only
>removed from the eastern "war zone." The Armenian
>Genocide, however, occurred all over Anatolia
>[present-day Turkey], and not just in the so-called
>"war zone." Deportations and killings occurred in the
>west, in and around Ismid (Izmit) and Broussa (Bursa);
>in the center, in and around Angora (Ankara); in the
>south-west, in and around Konia (Konya) and Adana
>(which is near the Mediterranean Sea); in the central
>portion of Anatolia, in and around Diyarbekir
>(Diyarbakir), Harpout (Harput), Marash, Sivas
>(Sepastia), Shabin Kara-Hissar (țebin Karahisar), and
>Ourfa (Urfa); and on the Black Sea coast, in and
>around Trebizond (Trabzon), all of which are not part
>of a war zone. Only Erzeroum, Bitlis, and Van in the
>east were in the war zone.
>
>The Armenian Genocide was condemned at the time by
>representatives of the British, French, Russian,
>German, and Austrian governments—namely all the major
>Powers. The first three were foes of the Ottoman
>Empire, the latter two, allies of the Ottoman Empire.
>The United States, neutral towards the Ottoman Empire,
>also condemned the Armenian Genocide and was the chief
>spokesman in behalf of the Armenians.
>
>The American people, via local Protestant
>missionaries, did the most to save the wretched
>remnants of the death marches, the orphaned children.
>
>Despite Turkish denial, there is no doubt about the
>Armenian Genocide. For example, German ambassador
>Count von Wolff-Metternich, Turkey's ally in World War
>I, wrote his government in 1916 saying: "The Committee
>[of Union and Progress] demands the annihilation of
>the last remnants of the Armenians and the [Ottoman]
>government must bow to its demands."
>
>German consuls stationed in Turkey, including Vice
>Consul Max Erwin von Scheubner-Richner of Erzerum
>[Erzurum] who was Adolf Hitler's chief political
>advisor in the 1920s, were eyewitnesses. Hitler said
>to his generals on the eve of sending his Death's
>Heads units into Poland, "Go, kill without mercy . . .
>who today remembers the annihilation of the Armenians."
>
>Henry Morgenthau Sr., the neutral American ambassador
>to the Ottoman Empire, sent a cable to the U.S. State
>Department in 1915:
>
>"Deportation of and excesses against peaceful
>Armenians is increasing and from harrowing reports of
>eye witnesses [sic] it appears that a campaign of race
>extermination is in progress under a pretext of
>reprisal against rebellion."
>Morgenthau's successor as Ambassador to Turkey, Abram
>Elkus, cabled the U.S. State Department in 1916 that
>the Young Turks were continuing an ". . . unchecked
>policy of extermination through starvation,
>exhaustion, and brutality of treatment hardly
>surpassed even in Turkish history."
>
>Only one Turkish government, that of Damad Ferit
>Pasha, has ever recognized the Armenian genocide. In
>fact, that Turkish government held war crimes trials
>and condemned to death the major leaders responsible.
>
>The Turkish court concluded that the leaders of the
>Young Turk government were guilty of murder. "This
>fact has been proven and verified." It maintained that
>the genocidal scheme was carried out with as much
>secrecy as possible. That a public facade was
>maintained of "relocating" the Armenians. That they
>carried out the killing by a secret network. That the
>decision to eradicate the Armenians was not a hasty
>decision, but "the result of extensive and profound
>deliberations."
>
>Ismail Enver Pasha, Ahmed Cemal Pasha, Mehmed Talât
>Bey, and a host of others were convicted by the
>Turkish court and condemned to death for "the
>extermination and destruction of the Armenians."
>
>The Permanent People's Tribunal recognized the
>Armenian Genocide on April 16, 1984.
>
>The European Parliament voted to recognize the
>Armenian Genocide on June 18, 1987.
>
>President Bush issued a news release in 1990 calling
>on all Americans to join with Armenians on April 24 in
>commemorating "the more than a million Armenian people
>who were victims."
>
>President Clinton issued a news release on April 24,
>1994, to commemorate the "tragedy" that befell the
>Armenians in 1915.
>
>The Russian Duma (the lower house of the bicameral
>Russian legislature) voted on April 20, 1994, to
>recognize the Armenian Genocide.
>
>Israel officially condemned the Armenian Genocide as
>Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister Yossi Beilin
>proclaimed on the floor of the Knesset (the Israeli
>legislature), on April 27, 1994, in answer to the
>claims of the Turkish Ambassador, that "It was not
>war. It was most certainly massacre and genocide,
>something the world must remember."
>
>The Armenian genocide is similar to the Jewish
>holocaust in many respects. Both people adhere to an
>ancient religion. Both were religious minorities of
>their respective states. Both have a history of
>persecution. Both have new democracies. Both are
>surrounded by enemies. Both are talented and creative
>minorities who have been persecuted out of envy and
>obscurantism.
>
>Issues:
>
>
>The Republic of Turkey must cease to be the only major
>country in the world to deny the Armenian Genocide.
>
>The Republic of Turkey must show good will by allowing
>American aid to present-day Armenia to pass through
>unhindered.
>
>The Republic of Turkey must cease to train Azerbaijani
>soldiers in Turkey for the purpose of attacking
>Armenia.
>April 3, 1996

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