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Subject: Re: Question for Steve or Ray


Author:
Steve
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Date Posted: 08:12:30 04/14/03 Mon
In reply to: Rev Msgr Randy Kemp, Ph.D. - www.unlimitedgrace.net 's message, "Question for Steve or Ray" on 11:21:44 04/13/03 Sun

Randy --

You wrote, "I have a question for the penticostalists here. Today I visited a assembly of God penticostal church. It was a very nice experience and I enjoyed the service very much. But I wonder if I went to a Church of God - or another pentecostal church - would there be differences in belief, just as there are differences in belief in the protestant world? Can someone shed some light on this and what the differences may be? This is not a debate or to put down pentifcostal beliefs - but the question is asked from a basis of understanding"

Differences of belief? Of course. There are a full range of strange beliefs in some "restoration-theology" churches, which range from Quaker (the basis of ALL American Christianity), through Native American Spirituality, through Latter-Day Saints (Mormons), through Jehovah's Witlesses, through Pentecostalist, through the modern McChurch (broadcast televangelism), to the postmodern apostolic/prophetic Third Day movement (which you and I have discussed previously), the last one which strangely enough includes the MMP (Marian Movement of Priests -- a movement within the Roman Catholic Church, at http://www.mmp-usa.net).

One of the features of pentecostal services in churches I've attended, is the freedom, in that the members of the congregation are encouraged to participate, i.e., they give testimonies, they respond to the preacher when he's talking, almost like a musical jam session. Of course it works better when the people KNOW THEIR SCRIPTURE.

One feature in pentecostalist churches (kind of rankles me) is a streak of anti-intellectualism, resulting in a general disdain for too much doctrinal definition or distinction. You will find a commonality, not in shared ideas, but rather in shared experiences. Fellowship and brotherhood is not based on creeds but on a camaraderie borne of respect for similar experiences of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

BUT.

There was a movement in the latter half of the 1800's, known as the Holiness Movement. This movement embraced a rather legalistic attitude toward the faith, as did other 19th century groups (Millerites, 7th-Day Adventists, Nazarenes, etc.) Like the Shakers since the late 1700's, but unlike the other groups, the gifts of the spirit were present here, somewhere around the 1860's-1870's, a while before Azusa Street (the Pentecostal outpouring in 1906, the basis of the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement of the last century). The Holiness people embraced the Pentecostal outpouring when it happened, giving birth to "Pentecostal Holiness" churches. These latter groups, while espousing the movement of the Spirit in their lives, tend to be, as I said, legalistic, and will tend to impose their particular point of view on others. The sense of freedom I noted earlier is missing from these churches.

Another distinction you may find (though this is decreasing) is that congregations will tend to be organized along racial lines. This is something that is hard to get around. The expressions in church will tend to follow the cultural rules of courtesy common to the particular racial group that makes up the congregation. Assemblies of God, for instance, tend to be "white" churches. So do Evangelical Covenanters. Church of God in Christ (like AME), on the other hand, is a "black" church. I personally feel uncomfortable in segregated churches (actually in segregated ANYTHING), though non-holiness "black" churches do tend to be warmer and friendlier that any of the "white" ones. (The "white" churches tend to be more "doctrine"-oriented.)

Independents & nondenoms have a lot more luck getting around the race thing.

So, the differences are not so much in the substance of belief, but rather in their practices and attitudes. And as I said once before, N-O-O-O-O---S-N-A-K-E-S-S-S!!!!!


talk atcha l8r


yiC

stephen the 5/8 forgiven

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Replies:
[> [> Subject: Footnote on the Quakers


Author:
Rev Msgr Randy Kemp, Ph.D. - www.unlimitedgrace.net
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Date Posted: 10:47:58 04/14/03 Mon

I just have a brief footnote on the Quakers. They are now a very small group worldwide. They have websites at http://www.quakerinfo.org/ and http://www.quaker.org/, so people can see how they view themselves. I believe there are three formats of Quaker meetings or groups.. One is very traditional and pastoral, with a personal relationship with Christ being emphasized. One is a meeting in silence. Since the Quakers refuse to be creed based, you can get people joining them who are less then orthodox. But I do believe that the holy spirit does fill a meeting in silence, if enough true believers are present. George Fox did emphasize spiritual experience and they look at the gospel of John aspect of Christ (the eternal logos, which is also found in Greek platonic and stoic philosophy) and this experience of him.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Footnote on the Quakers


Author:
Rev Msgr Randy Kemp, Ph.D. - www.unlimitedgrace.net
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Date Posted: 10:56:28 04/14/03 Mon

Let me make a disclaimer here, in that the information presented at the religious tolerance site is not written by Christians, and make not be 100% accurate. Having said that, they do have a history of the Quakers (and their different factions) at http://www.religioustolerance.org/quaker.htm

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[> [> Subject: Boy Steve! You hit the nail right on the head !! ( Please read this)


Author:
MarkM
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Date Posted: 12:37:36 04/14/03 Mon

A statement by Kenneth Copeland:
“I was shocked when I found out who the biggest failure in the Bible actually is, the biggest one in the whole Bible is God! Now, the reason you don’t think of God as a failure is He never said He’s a failure. And you’re not a failure till you say you’re one!”)
---------------------------------------------------

Steve, RE:
"One feature in pentecostalist churches (kind of rankles me) is a streak of anti-intellectualism, resulting in a general disdain for too much doctrinal definition or distinction. You will find a commonality, not in shared ideas, but rather in shared experiences."


Im very surprised to hear this admission coming from a member of the Pentecostal Church. The on the other hand I very happy to hear a Pentecostal Church member such as you being "rankled" over the "biblical duming-down" of its members in this denomination.

Many Christians such as me anguish over this happening, or better said being "done to" the Christians in this part of the Body of Christ by "false teachers".

We on the out-side looking in, feel strongly that this "anti-intellectualism, resulting in a general disdain for too much doctrinal definition or distinction" is being purposefully done to its members. The reason they are doing this to its members is because much of what is being taught and done is not biblical in anyway shape or form, and they know it!
You can not be a student of the bible, study other religions, know about mind control techniques, and not plainly see these false teachers who bring false doctrines that are in fact pagan/demonic "religious experiences" into the Pentecostal Church.

“My heart is just sick, broken and in pain over this happening.”

Here is some of what they say from the pulpit.
* - Morris Cerullo (speaking of himself): “ You’re not looking at Morris Cerullo - you’re looking at God! You’re looking at Jesus! “

* - Kenneth Copeland: “Satan conquered Jesus on the cross”

* - Benny Hinn: “Never, ever, ever go to the Lord and say. ‘if it be thy will...’ ‘ Don’t allow such faith destroying words to be spoken form your mouth”

* - Kenneth Hagin: “man was created on terms of equality with God, and he could stand in God’s presence with out any consciousness of inferiority...”

Last this one coming from the Oral Robert’s ministry somes it up and says it all:

“I know a lot of people were blessed and sincerely ministered to by what we sang on TV, and by what we said -- but the overall picture is “ If you follow our formula, you’ll be like us”, rather than “ if you do what Jesus says, you’ll be like Him”. It is clearly more exciting to follow us, because to follow us is to identify with success, with glamour, with a theology the makes everything good and clean and well-knit together. To identify with Jesus, however, meant to identify with the cross.”
Statement made by --- Richard Robert’s Wife.

GOD, PLEASE SAVE OUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS IN CHRIST !!!

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[> [> [> Subject: A few notes on wisdom & common sense


Author:
Steve
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Date Posted: 08:25:54 04/15/03 Tue

Proverbs 4:7-9
7. The beginning of wisdom is this: Get wisdom, and whatever you get, get insight.
8. Prize her highly, and she will exalt you; she will honor you if you embrace her.
9. She will place on your head a fair garland; she will bestow on you a beautiful crown."


Proverbs 22:3 The wise man sees trouble and hides himself; the fool passes on and is taken in its snare.


Proverbs 9:12 If you are wise, you are wise for yourself; if you a fool, you alone will bear it.


Job 14:22 A man feels only the pain of his own body, and he mourns only for himself.


Wisdom 7:21-30
21. And now I understand everything, hidden or visible,
for Wisdom, the designer of all things, has instructed me.

22. For within her is a spirit intelligent, holy,
unique, manifold, subtle,
mobile, incisive, unsullied,
lucid, invulnerable, benevolent, shrewd,

23. irresistible, beneficent, friendly to human beings,
steadfast, dependable, unperturbed,
almighty, all-surveying,
penetrating all intelligent, pure and most subtle spirits.

24. For Wisdom is quicker to move than any motion;
she is so pure, she pervades and permeates all things.

25. She is a breath of the power of God,
pure emanation of the glory of the Almighty;
so nothing impure can find its way into her.

26. For she is a reflection of the eternal light,
untarnished mirror of God's active power,
and image of his goodness.

27. Although she is alone, she can do everything;
herself unchanging, she renews the world,
and, generation after generation, passing into holy souls,
she makes them into God's friends and prophets;

28. for God loves only those who dwell with Wisdom.

29. She is indeed more splendid than the sun,
she outshines all the constellations;
compared with light, she takes first place,

30. for light must yield to night,
but against Wisdom evil cannot prevail.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: wisdom & common sense


Author:
Markm
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Date Posted: 19:30:27 04/15/03 Tue

The downside is if you don't seek wisdom you will find doing the following very difficult:



LOL -- OOOoooOO I bad! hehe :-)

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: wisdom & common sense


Author:
steve
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Date Posted: 02:51:03 04/16/03 Wed

roflmao --

love it!

where do you find this stuff?

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