| Subject: Monkey |
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Prinncesss
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Date Posted: 12:01:51 12/28/01 Fri
I wanted to move this, it was getting too cluttered down there.
to be forgiven, all you gotta do is ask.
That's not true. You have to forgive others in order for the Lord to forgive you.
>>It isn't a question of free-will, but of Divine
>>Intervention. You say He won't intervene to stop all
>>the religious violence that has plagued mankind since
>>the first scripture was penned, but he WILL intervene
>>to help you with a medical problem. Sounds like
>>you're contradicting yourself, unless you think you're
>>more worthy of His intervention than all those others
>>who could use some Intervention in their lives. If He
>>helped you, but not the many other people who are in
>>critical condition, as you were, what does that say
>>about the ones who don't recover?
>>
>You're right, I do sound like I'm contradicting
>myself. I don't claim to know God's ways. It's a
>mystery to me why He seemingly helps some, while
>seemingly not helping others.
>I think with religious violence, He may abhore, and so
>He doesn't "save" anyone from their stupidity. That's
>of course my limited human speculation which is
>probably completely wrong.
>
>But I certainly don't think that I'm the only one
>worthy of His intervention. I think He must have had
>a plan for me, by sparing me. Not sure what that plan
>is as of yet, but I'm open for ideas...
>
>Also, death, physical death is viewed erroniously by
>us. We think it's terrible, but it's not supposed to
>be. It's (and however far fetched this sounds) merely
>a tranport into the next life. For a saved
>individual, it's equivilent to entering into bliss.
I've sat with many a dying Christian and as blissful as you make is sound, they definitely wanted to postpone death for as long as they could.
As have I Monkey. What is blissful is the after life. Not the process of dying. Fear of the unknown is terrible! I could only imagine what it must be like to be dying! And even though I know to go to heaven is a wonderful thing, I still find the departure a horrifyingly sad thing! I remember this one old man who came in. He was there for hospice. He had cancer and was in terrible agony. He was on moriphene and all we could do was try to keep him as comfortable as possible. He arrived that morning, I came in for second shift, and he died before I clocked out. I remember whailing with such strong emotion. I cried so hard for that man. It hurt my feelings so badly that he suffered, and when he finally died, I just lost it. I was hardly comforted that he was dead, but at least relieved that he wasn't suffering anymore. I had prayed for him before he died. Something, if you're going to do it, you'd better do it without anyone seeing or you could get in trouble!
>The only terrible thing about death is dying the
>second death, which is to go to hell, which is to be
>seperated from God/bliss for all eternity.
For me, the most terrible thing about death is being seperated from loved-ones for all eternity. Makes me appreciate them all the more.
I take
>that back, it's not the only terrible thing. The other
>is the remaining loved ones who feel the terrible and
>horrifying loss of the one who has died. That too is
>unfortunately a part of life on earth.
there ya go. :)
>But we have the unfortunate "tunnel vision" being
>human, and can't see the big picture that God does.
>Without knowing all aspects of a subject, it's hard to
>say. Kind of like your children. Say your son really
>wants to do something you know he shouldn't, but you
>don't sit him down and tell him every single aspect of
>why. He just has to trust you because you are his
>father.
Yes, but this is trust, not faith. By definition, all faith is "blind". My son's trust in me isn't baseless. He knows that I'll be there to actually help, like I have many times in the past.
At some point your children's faith turned into trust. But they have faith in daddy because it's natural. I'm talking about when they're really young. They have that child like faith. It's not until we get older that we start exercising the trust that must be earned type thought.
>>People are born with human traits, and nothing else.
>
>Yeah, but there are instinctuals, and there are
>people who have evolved. Am I right?
Actually, you're wrong. Individuals don't actually evolve. Populations evolve. Besides, the trait of being human is one we are born with. No matter how much you may grow as an individual, you still have this trait, which is why "going to hell when you die" is the default outcome, according to Christianity.
By evolve I mean learn and grow. And yes, we are all born with the disease of sin which has been reconciled if we'll only accept it.
>>Wrong. They ARE killing in the name of God. Be it
>>the Isrealites slaughtering Amalakite babies, French
>>barbarians killing Muslims during the Crusades, or
>>fanatical Muslims killing people with airplanes, they
>>all have one thing in common: they are convinced that
>>they are doing God's bidding. I agree with you that
>>they are not, but that doesn't alter the fact that
>>THEY believed it, and it isn't any consolation to
>>their victims that they were mistaken.
>
>Monkey, what I'm saying is, they THINK they are
>killing in the name of God. It's not God who commands
>them to kill in His name, it's stupid human perception
>IMHO.
So your take on the Amalakite massacre? You know, where the Isrealites thought that God told them to butcher every man, woman, and child they found? Are you agreeing with me that there's a chance they were wrong, and were doing exactly what Bin Ladin is doing now (he's convinced that he's doing "God's work")? Are they any different than the guy who kills his parents believing that God told him to? I certainly don't believe that a God actually told him to, but I believe that he believed it!
I'm not familar with that story, but yes I agree with you.
>>I agree with you again, that religion becomes the
>>focus of the church, not God. Another thing to think
>>about. As I observe the carrying-ons of the members
>>of the congregation in my wife's "born-again" group, I
>>can't help but notice how the focus is totally taken
>>off God and put on Jesus. I find this strange, as
>>they tend to worship the MYTHS of Jesus (poorly
>>documented and conflicting claims by biased writers
>>who exhibited poor journalistic practices, who were
>>NOT eye witnesses and couldn't interview eye-witnesses
>>as they were already dead. Now, THAT'S blind faith).
>>Ever wonder 'bout that? I understand the importance
>>of Jesus to a Christian, but it often looks like they
>>carry this to the point of making Jesus out to be of
>>MORE importance than God. Just an observation.
>
>
>And an interesting one at that. Your wife is born
>again?
>That is so facsinating! Reminds me of the movie/book
>"Left Behind". The thing about Jesus, is He is God.
>He is God in the form of man. The trinity is a hard
>one to explain, but the Father (God), Son (Jesus), and
>the Holy Spirit (Spirit of God who lives in us), are
>all the same yet different. It can be crudely
>explained this way: Monkey, you are a Dad, Husband,
>and a Son. You are only one person, but you have 3
>roles. So, with that said, I think you'd better get
>to the gym and quick! LOL Sorry.
>
>As far as believing that the accounts of the gospels
>are true, well, I can't help you there. I have
>nothing to say other than I have a child like faith as
>is required. I have trust and faith, and in fact am
>convinced beyond hope that it is true.
Fair enough. Here's another dilemma for you: My wife will tell you that Heaven will definitely not be Paradise without me there. According to some Christians (but not all) as an Agnostic, I'll not be allowed into Heaven. Does this mean that she will be spending eternity in Heaven going through torment?
No, she won't spend eternity in torment, but the thought of her husband not joining her in heaven is a tormenting thought for her to bare.
Another thought: Spending eternity with all those others in Heaven, including all the girls I was "with" in my past (and their Mothers!), and that guy who cut me off coming out of the arena last week, doesn't sound like Paradise to me!
LOL. It's hard to conceive, but when we are there, this will all be like a split second of our existence. We will be consumed by the Holy, ever loving presence of the Lord. To give you a picture of what it might be like in His presence, the angels spend the entire day bowing and singing in worship to Him. We will be doing much more than that. We won't be spending our entire eternity doing what the angels do, but we will be consumed with utter bliss that cannot be explained.
With your wife being born again, I have to say, your days are numbered!!
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