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Date Posted: 13:27:20 03/10/05 Thu
Subject: Re: Obedience
In reply to:
's message, "Re: Obedience" on 04:22:43 03/10/05 Thu
I think the issue here may not be all about dis-/obedience. I think the issue here is that the kid really likes drawing. He might have some talent too. Loving drawing can be a really good thing that must be encouraged. Since the kid really likes drawing, if he is asked to stop doing what he really likes and he thinks that drawing is not evil, he would certainly think it is extremely unfair. But the problem is that he is doing it on a desk. So I think his drawing must be encouraged but doing it on a desk should be discouraged in a very prayerful way. But some artists do their drawings on desks or on walls or even on bodies! So if I see him drawing on his desk again, I would tell him, "Hey man, I really like your drawing. It looks fantastic! You will make a famous artist someday like Walt Disney! I will pray for you. Can you draw on papers too?" I would even buy some drawing kits for him maybe from a dollar store. Or maybe I would get a biography of Walt Disney for him from a library.
I wouldn't label him a sinner. He is a precious child who bears his creator's image. Who knows maybe God created him to make him a great artist for his glory? We adults have the responsibility to help him fulfill the purpose in his creation. I would rather focus on helping him develop his great talent in drawing than making him not draw on a desk. We should be clear about what to encourage and what to discourage. We should not discourage what we ought to encourage while discouraging a certain behavior. Or we should not encourage what we ought to discourage while encouraging a certain a behavior. But sadly in some institutions, churches and schools, what ought to be discouraged is encouraged and what ought to be encouraged is discouraged for some political reasons. I think there are many books available on this issue. I want to recommand the following sites:
>>Caitlin, I think of course the parents want obedient
>>But I think by the same token, parents do not want
>>robots to program that will just do the routine. They
>>want to raise persons, with their own decision making
>>process, drawing their own conclusions etc.
>To me it's hard for me to understand. This is the
>scenario. Many people in schools write on the desks
>and it's offensive to me because it's not their desks.
> Also, I think it leads to sloppiness and disrespect.
>Some kid is drawing penises on chairs and desks.
>This kid was doodling on his desk. I went to him and
>asked him nicely to not doodle on his desk. He looked
>at me and acknowledged my existense but didn't say
>anything. I went back to my desk and there he goes
>doodling on the desk-even signing his name on it. I
>went back and told him please to not doodle on his
>desk-the rule was for one infraction I'm supposed to
>call the parent. Honestly, I wanted just to make him
>clean the desk, but I can't make children do "manual"
>labor in the schools.
>All this happened last week. Then yesterday, the kid
>was pretend doodling on his desk. I said, "That's it,
>I'm going to tell the head teacher to call your
>teacher". He said I was being unfair. So, you don't
>think it's a sin to disobey? As a teacher, I'm an
>authority figure. How about in Hebrews when we are
>told to obey those who are leaders in the church?
>What about when we are told to obey the authorities in
>Romans? I was even told that when Paul wrote to the
>Romans about obeying the authorities, Nero was the
>authority. I think in Heaven obedience won't be an
>issue because only those who love Jesus will be there
>and those who love Jesus will obey Him. However, on
>earth we deal with human beings who don't have the
>Spirit to control them.
>>Of course, many times, children don't understand, and
>>as such, should simply do as told.
>>The problem isn't about when someone is disobedient to
>>something or someone, the problem is about when a
>>person is doing something wrong.
>Disobedience is no wrong.
>How about in Deuteronomy when if a parent had an
>unruly child who wouldn't obey them, they were to take
>them in front of the community and stone them to
>death? I don't think I should stone children to
>death, but the law reflects God's character, so I
>think to God, disobedience is a sin. However, if the
>authorities contradict God's law, as in Exodus when
>the Egyptians were to kill the first-born of the
>Hebrews or in acts when the authorities told the
>disciples not to preach the word, they were to obey
>God's law and not the authorities.
>>As a Christian, we have a very high moral standard, so
>>high that sometimes, it will only let us choose
>>between disobedience and wrong (such as: there's a
>>redlight between you and that old lady, but someone
>>attacks that lady: you could either disobey traffic
>>laws and help her, or you could obey traffic laws and
>>let the lady get mugged).
>I do think that we need to be very careful about
>hiding behind the law and not caring about others. As
>the Levites did in the story of the Good Samaritan,
>however, this is not often the case.
>>Obedience in the adult world comes out of
>>understanding and appreciating the underlying
>>principles behind a law, regulation or order. Without
>>this understanding, one can not reasonably be assumed
>>to obey (unquestioningly).
>So do you think I should explain to the class why I
>think it's repugnant to write on the desks? I think
>they'll laugh in my face. It's not my property and I
>could think, "Well, who cares? It's not my property".
> However, I think it's a sign of disrespect and just
>>And with this understanding, one has to weigh whether
>>it is better to violate these underlying principles or
>>whether to violate other principles and/or conscience
>>or whether all principles are harmonic and obedience
>>is no issue of conflict.
>>The question isn't so easy and straightforward as you
>>may think, but my answer is: disobedience is no sin in
>>itself. Lack of understanding leading to disobedience
>>may cause disobeying to constitute a sin, but lack of
>>understanding leading to obedience may cause obedience
>>to be a sin as well.
>>Dis-/Obedience can lead to sin, but it isn't one.
>>I mean, you told your kid not to dial 9-1-1 unless
>>your house burns, but then the neighbour falls down a
>>ladder, wouldn't you be thankful the kid disobeyed and
>>dialed 9-1-1 regardless?
>Yes, but I think I'm careful with my words. I
>wouldn't be so specific with my kid. I tell him to
>call 9-1-1 in emergencies. Therefore, there's no need
>for disobedience in the above situation.
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