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Date Posted: 02:03:14 02/01/05 Tue
Author: Mike K.
Subject: Works
In reply to: Unworthy (Definition of Love) 's message, "Re: The standard" on 01:30:21 02/01/05 Tue

But what about this?
Matthew 7:21 �Not everyone who says to me, �Lord, Lord,� will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

You conveniently forgot to quote verses 22 and 23, which is so common, also in UBF. Let me add them for you:
Many will say to me on that day, �Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?� Then I will tell them plainly, �I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!�

Why didn't you quote to also say that there's many who claim to be diong great works in the name of the Lord, who will eternally be rejected by Him?
Because this is what happens when people act in blind zeal, not in the full knowledge of His will.
You take Mt7:21 out of it's context, but there's vereses around. I'd even want to quite to you the foregoing verses, 17-20:

Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Can a tree (UBF) that produces lies, coverups, abortions, divorces, broken families, exploitation, abuse, relativism, arrogance, pride and deceit... can this tree be a good tree?

Yes, thank you for bringing Matthew 7 up. But please, don't quote out-of-context.

We know it is by grace we are saved, but it is the act of believing and having faith that this is initiated, and if indeed you TRULY believe, you should naturally do his will
1Thessalonians gives you a few verses wherein Paul describes "this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you". None of these verses mention applying any of the UBF strategies to bind people into an organization.

, because the Holy Spirit is within you, and of course it takes some sacrifice on your part, to resist evil, and thus this is the will of God isn't it?
The Holy Spirit most certainly does testify, and the more one really opens up to this Holy Spirit and starts to diligently pray, the stringer this testimony within gets. Ultimately, it enabled many of us who are now here on this forum to finally see UBF for what it really is and break with it.
I ask you: which price is higher, that to "serve World Mission on campus", or the price to admit one has spent years or decades following a lie, to be rejected by people one has formerly known as friends (UBF members), maybe even one's own spouse (UBF couples), to lose every worldly possession (since they were at one time donated to UBF), be maybe homeless, forsaken and lonely, all for having heard the testimony of the Holy Spirit concerning the works of the UBF leadership?
Or would it be the "will of God" to ignore the truth, the Lord's speaking, the righteous requirement of the law, and to continue in the illusion of harmony and go on "feeding sheep" in UBF?

The whole point of ministry is to spread the joy and the word of God, because of what he has done for us right?
Obviously, this should be the whole point of any Christian ministry. But what if it comes at the side effect of enabling a person to have personal slaves, 5 houses (one of them a villa), all without ever having lifted a finger on menial labour? Shouldn't the point of a ministry be to make people equal, instead of letting one "lord it over" others?

And we naturally do want too right? and so this is the his will am i not correct?
You make assumptions, general statements, but you ignore the Bible. Interestingly enough, the Bible has a clear definition of God's will, and you totally steer around it, so why do you ask us if you are correct? Ask the Bible first. That's also what a Christian should want to do.

We are all imperfect.. duh then.. being saved.. is not an excuse to sin now is it.. I cannot perceive a Jesus who allows us to sin constantly with no regrets. I cannot picture Jesus who would let us commit the evilist and vilest acts constantly with no regrets. I think taht we must repent. And repenting means to stop what you're doing and do a 180 degree turn from the sin to goodness, this in turn, is God's will is it not? WOW, i actually taught myself sumthing, I hope you got something from this too.

All I should say is Amen.
Now, how about UBF leaders who think there's no problem loading money into bank accounts, using personal slaves, coercing money from UBF shepherds for their own personal benefits... what would you say if the UBF minsitry "directors" not only fail to tell them that they are living in sin, but actually praises them as "exemplary leaders"? Isn't that telling enough about this ministry?

So, in fact.. is reaching out to ppl a sin? Actually it is a command. and you might counter that it is for the wrong motives.
No, no one is talking about motives here in the first place. First, we're talking about: "do the ends justify the means?" If so, then the Inquisition were a perfectly acceptible means for bringing people to repentance.
For Jesus, the means are more important than the ends, because the ends are in God's hands.
I have stated this in my testimony upon leaving UBF many years ago: if God needed all men to be saved, it would require a mere word from Him, and it would come to pass. But He doesn't.
Mission is not our duty.
Mission is our privilege.
By being able to share the Lord's Word with others, we ourselves gain something from Christ, by bringing others to the Lord, we ourselves are brought closer to Him.
If we fail to take this personal aspect, then our mission is futile, worthless and a waste of time.
God does not NEED workers. God ALLOWS us to work.
If we do mission in order to fulfill our obligation to God, then we are off track.
It's like a person would play a game of chess to win, not to have learned a lesson. Taking the chess analogy, God could give us a board with a checkmate position for us, so that we have won already. But He doesn't. He lets us play, He lets us lose, He lets us win, He cares that WE learn the lesson. Not that we give him a "good win record". No lesson learn = wasted life.

This is why the Lord said "I have never known you, begone, workers of lawlessness". If our work doesn't bring us closer to God, we don't REALLY do His Will, we're avoiding to learn the lesson He intended. Only when we personally are drawn closer to God, then our work is unto eternal life.
And sorry to say, UBF leaders are so relativistic that you might think the higher up they are in the hierarchy, the less they care about who God really is or what He wants from them.

I'm glad you do :) And so do UBFers, more than you know. I personally do that all the time, and so do the whole multitude. That's.. uh.. what the whole ministry is based on.. isn't it? And so they do, before my eyes, crying.
Don't assume you know more about us than we know about UBF. Some of us have been around the UBF subculture for years, some for decades. And it doesn't take long to see all that there is to UBF on the outside, but it takes grace from God and a keen eye to see what is going on on the inside.

Yes, many UBF'ers repent with tears. Have you seen Peter Chang repenting in tears for being responsible for the death of an infant? Have you seen him spill a single tear over kicking a toddler into the groin multiple times? Have you seen him lose a single word about receiving sensual favours from married shepherdesses?
And this guy is an "exemplary leader", a person who is presented to the UBF populace as a pattern to follow.

This is the UBF that we're complaining about.
Not the UBF where sacrificial folk of God see their errors and repent from their wicked ways.

Just to clarify it.
I don't doubt that UBF has many devout people who strive to do as God wants.
All I doubt is their motives to go along with an organization that is making ungodly people "exemplary" and patterns to follow.

In Christ,
Mike K.

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Replies:

Re: Houses -- Chris, 03:26:45 02/01/05 Tue
- Re: Houses -- Mike K., 07:54:09 02/01/05 Tue