Re: freedom to chose --NOT -- RSQUBF discussion forum

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Date Posted: 13:21:23 10/22/04 Fri
Author: Bob2
Subject: Re: freedom to chose --NOT
In reply to: Brother in Christ 's message, "Re: freedom to chose --NOT" on 10:04:09 10/22/04 Fri

Hello Bro,

I just wanted to add a comment based on my own observations. The freedom that you were allowed, even as an American, could have only happened in a larger UBF chapter like Chicago or Toledo UBF. For all those shepherds in smaller UBF chapters spread across NA, there really is no choice but the arranged marraige option.

Even in larger chapters like Chicago, numbers depletion would mean that any choice would be very limited. And, certainly some choice, say cross-cultural, would be restricted.

Bob2

>Let me respond to what Joe is asking.
>
>>Bro,
>>
>>I've read your past posts, and, correct me if I'm
>>wrong, you are a strongly independent-minded person
>>(which I admire) who calls on others in UBF to be
>>likewise.
>
>I am and do. Thank you Joe I also respect you and your
>kind words do mean a lot to me.
>
>>So I believe what you've written of your
>>experience. And there have been rare instances in
>>which members ended up marrying an old boyfriend,
>>girlfriend or fiance but only after that old
>>boyfriend, girlfriend or fiancee was also "fished"
>>into UBF. John Bird, Ward Canfield, Marius Sumandea
>>and Javier Chavez come to mind immediately (three of
>>those four are no longer in UBF).
>
>She was not an old girlfriend. She was a 'sheep' of a
>missionary. I never knew her before joining UBF. But
>yes i also have seen what you are saying. And yes they
>only marry in UBF if both are members.
>
>
>>Did you end up marrying one of the female members that
>>you dated? Would you consider your eventual marriage
>>to have been an arranged marriage, if not from your
>>own point of view, then from the point of view of your
>>bride?
>
>Yes actually it was the third one I dated. I still
>sort of consider it to be arranged in the sense that I
>was not able to freely date anyone i wanted but was
>able to freely date whoever they said i could. Which
>in itself may have been some manipulation. Which was
>based on my recommendations on who i wanted to date.
>But yes they only allowed me to date who they said was
>ready. They actually asked me who I wanted to date and
>I would giv ethem a list of 2 or 3 and then they would
>come back like th enext day and tell me it was OK to
>date this one. They actually then gave me her phone
>number and I called her. It was not a surprise to her
>as they also told her i would call her for a date. But
>once they agreed and gave me the go ahead I was free
>to date as i wanted. I mean nothing improper ever
>happened, we only held hands, never kissed or anything
>like that, but we freely went to movies and dinner and
>all kinds of things. Also I can say they never
>interfered.
>
>>You stated yourself, "I am surprised they even let me
>>marry."
>
>I said that based on what I know to be the usually way
>of UBF marriages and based upon the stories all of you
>are relating. I know i was granted freedoms that some
>are not. I know my marriage was not typical, but it
>does happen this way at times. I know of others who
>married the same way in UBF. By the way they all were
>Americans if that has anything to do with it. But i
>acknowledge it is not the usuall case. Now why was i
>granted such freedom i don't know. I think it was
>because they knew i would not allow such games. They
>had no choice.
>
>>When you got married, how many others got married in
>>the same chapter, on the same day? And would you
>>consider those other marriages to have been arranged?
>
>It was a joint ceremony. There were two others one was
>the typical UBF arranged marriage and the other was
>the boyfriend, girlfriend thing as you mentioned
>above.
>
>>Would you disagree with the statement
>>all UBF marriages are arranged; Some estimate that 95%
>>to 99% of married UBF members were arranged to be
>>married within UBF."
>
>Oh definitely. No doubt or denial here. If you are in
>UBF there is no way they will support your marriage if
>you marry outside of UBF.
>
>>UBF leaders (even the non-Korean ones like Mark
>>Vucekovich and even hard
>>core UBF defenders like the one we've seen recently
>>would say that dating is either discouraged or not
>>allowed in UBF.
>
>Yep, I agree. It is discouraged, but allowed on some
>basis if the couple is going to get or seeing about
>marriage. I guess the freedom varies, as we are
>learning here.
>
>>Personally, if I had tried to start a dating
>>relationship in Chicago, there would have been severe
>>consequences for me. 2ndgens dating each other was
>>strictly verboten. I remember the shouting matches and
>>"repentence sogams" as recently as 2000, resulting
>>from 2ndgens trying to furtively date other 2ndgens.
>
>I never tried to start dating anyone outside the
>parameters of seeing if we want to marry and of course
>after it was approved by the powers that be. I have
>heard of second gens who have dated and yes it was met
>with great resistance. I even remember one woman
>crying in her testimony because her son had a date
>with a second gen girl. Like it was such an evil thing
>to do.
>
>Let me just close by saying again i know my case was
>different from most cases. But also i know of many who
>dated as I did. Heck i dated three girls without any
>interference from leaders so right from that i know of
>4 people who did. Also two of the girls I dated also
>dated other people before and after me. There is a
>secret dating society that goes on. It was actually a
>common thing amoung Americans. I don't know if it
>still is. I think more so Koreans are more manipulated
>in the marriage by faith game.
>
>Also please nobody take what I am saying as an
>endorsement for UBF marriage ways. Basically I just
>wanted to write to tell people that if they are strong
>and clear in their convictions before God, the games
>won't be played on you. Let them know as soon as
>possible that you won't be a party to arrangement
>games. Do this also in everything in life. This is why
>UBF continues; too many weak people who just follow
>man over following God.

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