Date Posted:12:51:54 05/08/06 Mon Author: * Name (required): Subject: Re: The deity of Jesus Christ In reply to:
Lord Veritas
's message, "The deity of Jesus Christ" on 21:56:34 05/06/06 Sat
>Has Jesus Christ always been God, or did he have to
>"earn it"? Hopefully, the responses to this debate
>topic will be more productive than the fiasco that
>occurred with the "Was Jesus married" topic...
Well if you go by scripture he has always and will always be God "I AM" THE WORD!
Of cousre, if one twists and adds/subtracts/takes out of context the scriptures, then well... one can mold reality into fiction quite effectively!
>Well if you go by scripture he has always and will
>always be God "I AM" THE WORD!
I must agree with this truth for the following reasons:
John 1:3-All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
This says that Jesus created everything. Straightforward.
This also says that nothing was created without him. That means heaven, the angels, mankind, earth, everything was created by him. In other words, we are his creations, not his brothers.
Colossians 1:16- For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.
This reiterates the previous point. If Jesus was a created being, he would not have been able to create all things. He would have merely created "all other things", which is not what the scriptures say.
John 1:1-2-In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.
This says that Jesus already existed at the beginning. He was neither born nor created at the beginning. He was already there.
John 8:58-59 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.
"I am" is how God revealed himself to Moses
Exodus 3:14 " And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you."
Echoing that, Jesus claims himself that he is the eternal God. He does not say "before Abraham was, I was born", or "Before Abraham was, I was created". He says "I am", meaning that he was, is, and will always be God.
Taking the above into account, it appears that Jesus Christ is indeed God, has always been God, and will always be God. He is God by his own nature, not because he narrowly beat Lucifer in a "who has the better plan for the world" contest.
[> [> [>
Re: Jesus was, is, and will always be God -- Mormon 210, 11:54:17 05/18/06 Thu
Lord,
>I must agree with this truth for the following reasons:
>
>John 1:3-All things came into being through Him, and
>apart from Him nothing came into being that has come
>into being.
>
>This says that Jesus created everything.
>Straightforward.
>This also says that nothing was created without him.
>That means heaven, the angels, mankind, earth,
>everything was created by him. In other words, we are
>his creations, not his brothers.
The Prophet of God in the latter days (Joseph Smith) re-translated John 1:1-34 and it clarifies God and Christ as two seperate individuals and that He (Christ was the Son) and was with God in the beginning. Your cohort "No name" stated that God was not subject to time, although I disagree with that notion, the applicaiton of beginning and ending is either out of sorts with his statement or there really is a beginning. If there is a beginning then there was either an accident and God came into being, or the context of time is that God existed as our God from the beginning. This further supports the eternal nature of God and His creators.
>Colossians 1:16- For by Him all things were created,
>both in the heavens and on earth, visible and
>invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or
>authorities--all things have been created through Him
>and for Him.
>This reiterates the previous point. If Jesus was a
>created being, he would not have been able to create
>all things. He would have merely created "all other
>things", which is not what the scriptures say.
I am a created being, yet I and my wife bore children. In that sense I am lord over my sons and daughters having been their creator, yet having been created myself. I am in the beginning, in me and in my wife were the beginnings of our family. Thus they (my children) were with me in the beginning and will be with me in the end.
>John 1:1-2-In the beginning was the Word, and the Word
>was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the
>beginning with God.
>
>This says that Jesus already existed at the beginning.
> He was neither born nor created at the beginning. He
>was already there.
See above.
>
>John 8:58-59 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered,
>"before Abraham was born, I am!" At this, they picked
>up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself,
>slipping away from the temple grounds.
>
>"I am" is how God revealed himself to Moses
>Exodus 3:14 " And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM:
>and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of
>Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you."
>
>Echoing that, Jesus claims himself that he is the
>eternal God. He does not say "before Abraham was, I
>was born", or "Before Abraham was, I was created". He
>says "I am", meaning that he was, is, and will always
>be God.
Again, He does not say He was not created, He says that He was before Abraham, which I fully agree with. In fact I stated in my first post that He was the firstborn in the spirit and the only born in the flesh.
>Taking the above into account, it appears that Jesus
>Christ is indeed God, has always been God, and will
>always be God. He is God by his own nature, not
>because he narrowly beat Lucifer in a "who has the
>better plan for the world" contest.
Barely? Christ won 2/3 of the hosts of heaven. That is 66% vs. 33%. Even if I read John 1:1-2 that was not re-translated by the Prophet Joseph Smith, it says that the same (meaning the Word or Christ) was with God. Secondly, there is a Father that Christ prays to, God's voice pronounces His Son's baptism while the Holy Ghost descends as a dove. My point here is that Christ Jehovah is our Lord yet He has a Lord in God the Father Elohim.
