Re: Rich ruler, poor apostles (rebuttal part 1) -- Utah's Religion Debate

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Date Posted: 11:20:01 08/19/05 Fri
Author: QUITTNER
Subject: Re: Rich ruler, poor apostles (rebuttal part 1)
In reply to: Lord Veritas 's message, "Rich ruler, poor apostles (rebuttal part 1)" on 13:21:38 08/15/05 Mon

As I understand it, those who wrote the 4 "authorized" gospels, at least 40 years after Jesus was killed by the Romans, were NOT members of "The Kingdom of God", and they relied on garbled stories about it handed down mouth-to-mouth.
..... The "Kingdom of God" ("of heaven") was an alternative community, separated from "The World", partly described in Acts 2 and Acts 4. Members had a different, communal, loving lifestyle, quite different from those of the outsiders who still lived "in the World". It was an artificial "family" of likeminded, specially selected members. No others could get in, and high quality of character/morality was required of all members. Compare with current rquirements of religious orders and other groups that still require of all applicants for full membership vows of obedience, poverty and chastity. Keeping always all of the commandments of God was, of course, only one of these requirements - nobody could get to be a member otherwise. All members were poor as individuals, including Jesus and the apostles, they had pooled their possession and given them to the administration of the Kingdom of God for the use of all members as required. Outsiders therefore called members "The Poor". Members, and ONLY members, had "life", even "eternal life", as compared with the outsiders who were (spiritually) "dead". Compare with the passage where a member was not permitted to attend a funeral (let the dead bury their dead).
..... After the Romans had killed Jesus, many changes were made, many new unauthorized versions of Christianity were invented, and the first priority was on maximizing the quantity of members (read: of their money), never mind their quality.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> You don't read many scriptures, do you? -- Lord Veritas, 17:15:29 02/07/06 Tue

>As I understand it, those who wrote the 4 "authorized"
>gospels, at least 40 years after Jesus was killed by
>the Romans, were NOT members of "The Kingdom of God",
>and they relied on garbled stories about it handed
>down mouth-to-mouth.
LV: That does not say much for your understanding. Three of those who wrote the gospels, Matthew, Mark, and John, were all eyewitnesses to the life and death of Christ and saw him after his resurrection. Luke compiled his gospel based on other eyewitness accounts. So much for your garbled "mouth to mouth" theory.

>..... The "Kingdom of God" ("of heaven") was an
>alternative community, separated from "The World",
>partly described in Acts 2 and Acts 4. Members had a
>different, communal, loving lifestyle, quite different
>from those of the outsiders who still lived "in the
>World". It was an artificial "family" of likeminded,
>specially selected members. No others could get in,
>and high quality of character/morality was required of
>all members. Compare with current rquirements of
>religious orders and other groups that still require
>of all applicants for full membership vows of
>obedience, poverty and chastity. Keeping always all of
>the commandments of God was, of course, only one of
>these requirements - nobody could get to be a member
>otherwise. All members were poor as individuals,
>including Jesus and the apostles, they had pooled
>their possession and given them to the administration
>of the Kingdom of God for the use of all members as
>required. Outsiders therefore called members "The
>Poor". Members, and ONLY members, had "life", even
>"eternal life", as compared with the outsiders who
>were (spiritually) "dead". Compare with the passage
>where a member was not permitted to attend a funeral
>(let the dead bury their dead).
LV: An interesting conspiracy theory, but unless you have specific quotes from the Bible that show that heaven is not the kingdom of God, that eternal life is a code phrase, etc, then that is all you have-an interesting conspiracy theory. I will address the passage of the "let the dead bury the dead" in a following post.
>..... After the Romans had killed Jesus, many changes
>were made, many new unauthorized versions of
>Christianity were invented, and the first priority was
>on maximizing the quantity of members (read: of their
>money), never mind their quality.
LV: I am going to assume that the reason you cited no specific information for this theory was because you were pressed for time. Either way, the accusations you make in the passage above are too vague and need to be substantiated to be taken seriously, otherwise, they are nothing more than a rant. In addition, the issue of unauthorized "Christian" sects is tangential to the main argument here of whether salvation is free and eternal or not, so please bring up that issue in a different thread where it has more relevance, such as the lost gospel and Constantinian threads.

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