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Subject: Are all me equal?


Author:
kbg
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Date Posted: 17:41:11 11/16/05 Wed

"The Declaration of Independence dogmatically bases all rights on the fact that God created all men equal; and it is right; for if they were not created equal, they were certainly evolved unequal. There is no basis for democracy except in a dogma about the divine origin of man." - Chapter 19, What I Saw In America, 1922 Chesterton

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[> Subject: Re: Are all me equal?


Author:
Biker Bob
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Date Posted: 17:18:11 11/19/05 Sat

I suppose....

but the Declaration of Independence was penned a while back. I think if you were using the word Dogma in the same sentence as the DOI in 1776 people would have wondered WTF you were talking about.

It goes back to common sense really. Why not the same rights for all? There is no good argument for not proceeding in that direction.

Tim your Forum blows. It is about as hopping as Barre on a Tuesady night.

Peter Mulvey, Sunday night, Valley Players 7:00pm, you would enjoy it.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Are all me equal?


Author:
the hipster
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Date Posted: 13:20:59 11/20/05 Sun

Bikerbub's attitude sucks! Perhaps if he could come up with things more encouraging and enlightening to post here, he himself might be less derisive. It takes a village...

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[> Subject: Re: Are all me equal?


Author:
Biker Bob
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Date Posted: 13:24:15 11/26/05 Sat

Only stating the facts. Nobody hardy comes here and when a contary view is posted it gets heckled. My last post was mockery was it? Little did the Hipster know it would enourage me to post more. A public forum is just that. One where all the people from the village can speak up (Even Biker Bob's). You can have me banned and allow only registered users to post. Then I think you would get even less traffic.

Peter Muvey's show was once again awesome. I did attempt to encourage and enlighten. To bad my belief system blinded the Hipster to all else. The orignial post is quite inflamatory by the way. What was its purpose if not to encourage a response? Are we suppose to just post something like what follows to be considered part of the Village?

" Oh what a lovely string of text, I agree and think you should run for office. Give us more! Are you pubished yet? You should be writing a novel or something."

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[> Subject: Re: Are all me equal?


Author:
tim
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Date Posted: 21:37:38 11/27/05 Sun

I believe the original post was from my friend Ken from Georgia and was a direct quote from GK Chesterton, a writer and theologian from the first part of the 20th century. You might actually find his writings interesting, bikerman; he was a very common sense kinda guy with a bit of humor thrown in for good measure. As for the hipster, he or she sounds like another one of the folks that find you offensive at times. I guess I'm just used to you and can read between the lines. Actually you should catch a show at the Opera House in downtown Barre sometime, before you talk about how dull it is there. It's actually one of the best places east of the Flynn to watch a show, or hear a concert.

I have fond memories of our arguments about the existance of God back in college, before I knew Jesus as my Lord and Savior. You took an athiest position, but probably had more of an agnostic point of view, as I remember. I still pray for you and your whole family to come to a saving knowledge of the one true God. Oh and thanks again for visiting my forum. You are one of the few that keep the cobwebs from overtaking this place!

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[> Subject: Re: Are all me equal?


Author:
tim
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Date Posted: 21:58:18 11/27/05 Sun

"Who is this guy and why haven’t I heard of him?"
by Dale Ahlquist

President

American Chesterton Society

I’ve heard the question more than once. It is asked by people who have just started to discover G.K. Chesterton. They have begun reading a Chesterton book, or perhaps have seen an issue of Gilbert! Magazine, or maybe they’ve only encountered a series of pithy quotations that marvelously articulate some forgotten bit of common sense. They ask the question with a mixture of wonder, gratitude and . . . resentment. They are amazed by what they have discovered. They are thankful to have discovered it. And they are almost angry that it has taken so long for them to make the discovery.

"Who is this guy. . .?"

Gilbert Keith Chesterton (1874-1936) cannot be summed up in one sentence. Nor in one paragraph. In fact, in spite of the fine biographies that have been written of him, he has never been captured between the covers of one book. But rather than waiting to separate the goats from the sheep, let’s just come right out and say it: G.K. Chesterton was the best writer of the 20th century. He said something about everything and he said it better than anybody else. But he was no mere wordsmith. He was very good at expressing himself, but more importantly, he had something very good to express. The reason he was the greatest writer of the 20th century was because he was also the greatest thinker of the 20th century.

Born in London, Chesterton was educated at St. Paul’s, but never went to college. He went to art school. In 1900, he was asked to contribute a few magazine articles on art criticism, and went on to become one of the most prolific writers of all time. He wrote a hundred books, contributions to 200 more, hundreds of poems, including the epic Ballad of the White Horse, five plays, five novels, and some two hundred short stories, including a popular series featuring the priest-detective, Father Brown. In spite of his literary accomplishments, he considered himself primarily a journalist. He wrote over 4000 newspaper essays, including 30 years worth of weekly columns for the Illustrated London News, and 13 years of weekly columns for the Daily News. He also edited his own newspaper, G.K.’s Weekly. (To put it into perspective, four thousand essays is the equivalent of writing an essay a day, every day, for 11 years. If you’re not impressed, try it some time. But they have to be good essays - all of them – as funny as they are serious, and as readable and rewarding a century after you’ve written them.)

Chesterton was equally at ease with literary and social criticism, history, politics, economics, philosophy, and theology. His style is unmistakable, always marked by humility, consistency, paradox, wit, and wonder. His writing remains as timely and as timeless today as when it first appeared, even though much of it was published in throw away papers.

This man who composed such profound and perfect lines as "The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried," stood 6’4" and weighed about 300 pounds, usually had a cigar in his mouth, and walked around wearing a cape and a crumpled hat, tiny glasses pinched to the end of his nose, swordstick in hand, laughter blowing through his moustache. And usually had no idea where or when his next appointment was. He did much of his writing in train stations, since he usually missed the train he was supposed to catch. In one famous anecdote, he wired his wife, saying, "Am at Market Harborough. Where ought I to be?" His faithful wife, Frances, attended to all the details of his life, since he continually proved he had no way of doing it himself. She was later assisted by a secretary, Dorothy Collins, who became the couple’s surrogate daughter, and went on to become the writer’s literary executrix, continuing to make his work available after his death.

This absent-minded, overgrown elf of a man, who laughed at his own jokes and amused children at birthday parties by catching buns in his mouth, this was the man who wrote a book called The Everlasting Man, which led a young atheist named C.S. Lewis to become a Christian. This was the man who wrote a novel called The Napoleon of Notting Hill, which inspired Michael Collins to lead a movement for Irish Independence. This was the man who wrote an essay in the Illustrated London News that inspired Mohandas Gandhi to lead a movement to end British colonial rule in India. This was a man who, when commissioned to write a book on St. Thomas Aquinas, had his secretary check out a stack of books on St. Thomas from the library, opened the top book on the stack, thumbed through it, closed it, and proceeded to dictate a book on St. Thomas. Not just any book. The renowned Thomistic scholar, Ettienne Gilson, had this to say about it:


"I consider it as being without possible comparison the best book ever written on St. Thomas. Nothing short of genius can account for such an achievement. Everybody will no doubt admit that it is a 'clever' book, but the few readers who have spent twenty or thirty years in studying St. Thomas. . . cannot fail to perceive that the so-called 'wit' of Chesterton has put their scholarship to shame. He has guessed all that which we had tried to demonstrate, and he has said all that which they were more or less clumsily attempting to express in academic formulas. Chesterton was one of the deepest thinkers who ever existed; he was deep because he was right; and he could not help being right; but he could not either help being modest and charitable, so he left it to those who could understand him to know that he was right, and deep; to the others, he apologized for being right, and he made up for being deep by being witty. That is all they can see of him."

Chesterton debated many of the celebrated intellectuals of his time: George Bernard Shaw, H.G. Wells, Bertrand Russell, Clarence Darrow. According to contemporary accounts, Chesterton usually emerged as the winner of these contests, however, the world has immortalized his opponents and forgotten Chesterton, and now we hear only one side of the argument, and we are enduring the legacies of socialism, relativism, materialism, and skepticism. Ironically, all of his opponents regarded Chesterton with the greatest affection. And George Bernard Shaw said: "The world is not thankful enough for Chesterton."

His writing has been praised by Ernest Hemingway, Graham Greene, Evelyn Waugh, Jorge Luis Borges, Gabriel Garcia Marquez, Karel Capek, Marshall McLuhan, Paul Claudel, Dorothy L. Sayers, Agatha Christie, Sigrid Undset, Ronald Knox, Kingsley Amis, W.H. Auden, Anthony Burgess, E.F. Schumacher, Neil Gaiman, and Orson Welles. To name a few.

T.S. Eliot said that Chesterton "deserves a permanent claim on our loyalty."



". . . and why haven’t I heard of him?



Why haven’t you heard of him?

There are three answers to this question:

I don’t know.
You’ve been cheated.
Chesterton is the most unjustly neglected writer of our time. Perhaps it is proof that education is too important to be left to educators and that publishing is too important to be left to publishers, but there is no excuse why Chesterton is no longer taught in our schools and why his writing is not more widely reprinted and especially included in college anthologies. Well, there is an excuse. It seems that Chesterton is tough to pigeonhole, and if a writer cannot be quickly consigned to a category, or to one-word description, he risks falling through the cracks. Even if he weighs three hundred pounds.
But there is another problem. Modern thinkers and commentators and critics have found it much more convenient to ignore Chesterton rather than to engage him in an argument, because to argue with Chesterton is to lose.

Chesterton argued eloquently against all the trends that eventually took over the 20th century: materialism, scientific determinism, moral relativism, and spineless agnosticism. He also argued against both socialism and capitalism and showed why they have both been the enemies of freedom and justice in modern society.

And what did he argue for? What was it he defended? He defended "the common man" and common sense. He defended the poor. He defended the family. He defended beauty. And he defended Christianity and the Catholic Faith. These don’t play well in the classroom, in the media, or in the public arena. And that is probably why he is neglected. The modern world prefers writers who are snobs, who have exotic and bizarre ideas, who glorify decadence, who scoff at Christianity, who deny the dignity of the poor, and who think freedom means no responsibility.

But even though Chesterton is no longer taught in schools, you cannot consider yourself educated until you have thoroughly read Chesterton. And furthermore, thoroughly reading Chesterton is almost a complete education in itself. Chesterton is indeed a teacher, and the best kind. He doesn’t merely astonish you. He doesn’t just perform the wonder of making you think. He goes beyond that. He makes you laugh.

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[> Subject: Re: Are all me equal?


Author:
kbg
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Date Posted: 14:16:13 11/28/05 Mon

I first learned of Chesterton through Ernest Hemingway. E. H. read his works and endorsed him in his writtings.

You found my cause Biker Bob. I posted that statement to see what comment(s) would be produced. Thanks for responding. I agree that there is good argument for treating all people equal. The difference between all people is very slight when compared to the difference between people and God. As for common sense - it is a great debate to see what passes for common sense. Leaving equality to common sense is probably not a good decision.

On the topic of disenting views: Great. On the topic of imparting any judgement on a disenting view: That's a prejudice that is contrary to equality. Disagreement has no affect on equality. One cannot disagree on fact, providing all the facts are available. One can disagree on opinions because opinions are sometimes loosely based on fact and many other times based on subjective interference.

I enjoy hearing disenting views because it challenges opinions I may hold and may need to revise or maintain. The other thing I've noticed is that the more tightly an opinion is held the more likely it is subjectively polluted.

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[> Subject: Re: Are all me equal?


Author:
Biker Bob
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Date Posted: 18:43:26 11/30/05 Wed

What ever, my observation is backed up by the huge amount of traffic since I last stopped in. An incredible one post.

I am part of the village so get used to it. You can't escape from your self so relax.

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[> Subject: Re: Are all me equal?


Author:
tim
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Date Posted: 08:14:02 12/01/05 Thu

touche'!

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[> Subject: Re: Are all me equal?


Author:
kbg
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Date Posted: 10:48:25 12/05/05 Mon

I do not subscribe to the Village approach as a means of justification or rationalization. You are tempting a discussion of absolute truth, but no thanks.

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[> Subject: Re: Are all me equal?


Author:
Biker Bob
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Date Posted: 20:45:34 12/18/05 Sun

"discussion of absolute truth" This is interesting to toss into the common sense debate. I think we all have our own truth. Although we can talk about things we seldom change how we see the world as a result of trading views.

Spineless agnosticism? Now there is another interesting statement. I think in general you need a spine if your agnostic. It is a pretty tough idea to get across to some. Spinless people often end up in church on Sunday.

"He defended the common man and common sense. He defended the poor. He defended the family. He defended beauty. And he defended Christianity and the Catholic"
Faith."

I like the first part of this but think it loses its punch when you start defending the Catholic Faith. If you are a person who looks within to understand the world it makes no sense to regulate your behavior now so that in the next life you get some reward (72 Virgins?). I like the way the native americans looked at things.

I think some people need an external structure to exist in the Village. That is all I see that is good about orgainized religion. It keeps a part of the village from being uncomfortable with not knowing everything. Not knowing is pretty tough for some people.

Tim I learned along time ago I will not like all of the people I meet. I am sure if you think about it you can likely think of a few people who are offended by your views. Your statement "sounds like another one of the folks that find you offensive at times" shows your bias. Are you keeping a list? I expect I will offend some people and some will offend me. This is just the way it is.

That Chesterton fellow doesn't sound like he had any new ideas. It does sound like he wrote a lot. I would be willing to bet he annoyed a few people in his day too.

Got any skiis?

PS: I posted this on Sunday 12/18 at 8:48 pm. Seems like it takes days for poss to show up on this board.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Are all me equal?


Author:
luddite
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Date Posted: 21:58:56 12/20/05 Tue

I think that when it comes down to the salt of each man's being, we are all pretty much all in the same boat.

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[> Subject: Re: Are all me equal?


Author:
Tim
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Date Posted: 13:43:56 12/22/05 Thu

Since you brought up the "boat theory", ludd, I'd like to suggest that there is a "new Ark" for our day and there is a call, as there was in Noah's day, to "get on board." There is a day fast approaching, perhaps even today, when the door to the ark will be closed.

The ark for today is Jesus Christ, or Yashua, if the traditional western spelling offends you. The Messiah was prophesied of by and to the Jews, hundreds of years before He came and became the "Lamb of God" slain for the sins of the whole world. He is also referred to as the "strait gate" the "narrow way" and is known as the "Good Shepherd." He is "The Reason for the Season" and made quite a splash in the lives of millions, even billions of lives down through the ages who have put their trust in Him. He is referred to in scripture as the Way, the Light, the Life, the Truth, the Word and on and on. He is "the substance of things hoped for" and without Him we have no hope! Contrary to popular opinion, He did not come the first time to bring Peace, but a sword. He crushed the "Prince of this World", the Devil, when He came and fulfilled His mission. This is why He is known as the Prince of Peace, because we can have no real peace on earth apart from Him. But with Him, we can have true Peace, despite the storms swirling around us!

The glory of God will shine brightly in 2006 and many will come to know and trust Him. I know my spirit was saved when I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior, but I am working out the salvation of my soul, day by day, as I read and meditate in His Word. My mind is being renewed and my faith is growing, as I learn to really Trust in Him with my whole heart and learn to lean less and less on my own understanding. Love is the answer and "God is Love." He showed us His love by giving us His Son.

Christmas is more than the celebration of the birth of a baby in a manger, it is the celebration of the fulfillment of the revelation of God entering the world in the flesh and providing us an "Ark" for entering eternity! All aboard! There's room for all!

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[> Subject: Re: Are all me equal?


Author:
soulster
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Date Posted: 00:09:57 12/24/05 Sat

Ark, Ark, is that a dogs voice with a suppressed B? Ark , Ark is that a trees skin missing a B? Ark Ark Ark Ark

The Earth is the Ark and we are all on it. Nobody gets out alive.

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[> Subject: Re: Are all me equal?


Author:
Ludd
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Date Posted: 15:31:03 12/24/05 Sat

Conversely, it could be HARK!..., with the H suppressed.

Merry Christmas Everybody!

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[> Subject: Re: Are all me equal?


Author:
Tele Bob
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Date Posted: 16:29:26 12/25/05 Sun

I rode my bike in circles today in honor of the season. Then I skied my trails until I got light headed and needed food. Not sure where the Ark is but I am happy right where I am and will not be off on any boat trip in the foreseeable future. I don't care how good the advertising is I am not in the market.

Do you know where your skis are?

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[> Subject: Re: Are all me equal?


Author:
tim
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Date Posted: 08:13:24 10/24/08 Fri

I'll take it as a compliment, bob, that you think the advertising was 'good.'

Just re-reading this thread this morning and wondering where all the philosophers have gone? luddite? kbg?

I'm no Chesterton, but I keep cranking out what God puts on my heart to share here at the forum that Joe helped me get started.

Had a wonderful weekend in the woods recently with my oldest and dearest friends from Essex. Check out boysweekend.com to see the latest video (soon to be a cult classic in some places in the world where freedom of expression by its citizens is not yet fully afforded! - just beware - it may not be suitable viewing for all audiences).

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[> Subject: Re: Are all me equal?


Author:
tim
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Date Posted: 09:30:35 12/08/08 Mon

something that the luddite said here a few years back struck a chord for me this morning. He wrote:

"when it comes to the salt of each man's being, we are all pretty much in the same boat."

I agree with this statement and Proverbs 20:27 backs this up when it says: "The spirit of a man is the lamp of the Lord, searching all the inner depths of his heart."

The salt of each man's being is the 'spirit of a man' and in that sense we are all in the same boat because we are all spirit beings. God is a spirit and we are made in His image.

When our spirit, which is our inner light, gets turned on to the things of the Lord, then we can truly live as we were intended to live, to the fullest! There is so much more to this life than what we can see.

If you are reading this, be encouraged! No matter what you are facing right now, physically, emotionally, financially there is hope for you over in the realm of God.

From the 2nd epistle of the apostle Peter starting in the 1st verse:

"Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, knowing this first:

that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, and saying, 'Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.'

For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water.

But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgement and perdition of ungodly men.

But, (me not the Lord - here's where the hope comes for all of us in the same boat here and now!) beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concering His promise, as some count slackness, BUT IS LONGSUFFERING TOWARD US, NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH BUT THAT ALL SHOULD COME TO REPENTENCE.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?

Nevertheless we, according to His PROMISE, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless (me again - and this happens when we call upon the Lord to save us!) and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation--as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen."

- Peter (2nd epistle 3:1-18)

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[> Subject: Re: Are all me equal?


Author:
webchuck
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Date Posted: 21:12:48 01/28/09 Wed

bump

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