Re: A lengthy response on treatise -- Adilbrand Noblesword's Hall of Warriors

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Date Posted: 00:26:00 05/04/02 Sat
Author: Bill
Subject: Re: A lengthy response on treatise
In reply to: mvd 's message, "A lengthy treatise on our favorite subject" on 18:07:26 04/15/02 Mon

As I wrote to you via icq, I am just to the middle of this post, and consider this an a good summary of christianity. A summary that even most fervant christians would agre with.
Now I am to the part where you are explaining what is wrong with christianity: You said.
>Christianity, instead of leading a man to his spirit, >
>leads himaway from it. If we agree that the spirit is ... >,everything, essentially,that is us, how then can we
>expect someone who is not us to lead us to
>our own spirit?

I have two comments: first, very intuitive
second; an argument: there is SOMETHING to the idea that only through others can we truly find outselves. Or maybe it is only With others.
Back to the first comment: intuitive; I am amazed at the effect that this 'leading us away from our own spirit' has on us. From the moment we begin to even know we exist, we are taught by parents, religion, peers, etc to hide peices of ourselves and be ashamed of peices of ourselves. It's like we start off as a whole house, and as dirogatory comments or "don't think that" is said to us; we close off room by room our entire house until we are in one little room and we don't realize anymore that the house consists of anything more than that single room.
We have locked off all those parts of ourselves that is seen as not-good and don't even remember doing so. You are so on the mark when you say that the way to finding our own spirit is by seeing ourselves as not good or evil but just ...just being "I am what am" just being.
We are taught very early to reject parts of ourselves. To close them off. And the rest of our lives our inner souls cause conflict to open these 'parts of our house'.
Does that fit with what you were saying?

you said:>This is a communication with god, they will
>say, but never in all my life of prayer did I do anything
>but hear myself talk!

wouldn't some honest 'talking to yourself' be a way to 'find your own spirit?' Certainly I believe it's the way to find God. Even the most misguided person still will agree that God is within us. I have personally found many answers in prayer. But then only in one prayer, "Lord, help me understand."

you asked, If a man helps himself, does
>>that not immediately relieve his burden of needing
>>anything else, from god or man?

I answer: absolutely not. Just because you help yourself, does not relieve a need for help. Likewise, Just because you receive help from others doesn't mean you don't need to help yourself. One without the other is useless. One without the other is likely impossible. Just like Love of yourself is likely impossible without Love of others; and vice-verse.
Indeed, is it at all possible to really understand yourself and your own spirit without having some ability at observing others and their behavior? We learn so much from observation of others that relates to ourselves. Is it possible to get the same understanding of ourselves otherwise?

>>religion holds before the believer an ideal

And everything that doesn't fit that mold is something to be hidden and rejected. I agree that this may be the single most harmful part of religion.
I think, things like this are where the differences between a person's chosen 'Faith' and a person's 'Religion' becomes obvious.

>>Yet, religion time and again intimates that the spirit is
>>something not wholly us, but something outside of us that
>>awaits recognition.

Even now, I sorta struggle with this. I mean, it's obvious that there is much about each human that is, well,, 'evil', or at least harmful and corrupting to others as well as ourselves. Equally obvious is that there is something pure and holy about us. Something perfect.
I can't put my finger on a real understanding of it all. Is it that all the worldly things such as greed are not important and somewhat seperate? Or somehow are we perfect and accepted and loved as a whole, complete with those things we see as so terrible? This makes me and other grimace and urge to reject it outright for some reason. Although, it seems like the greatest thing that could be as I really think of it, but it is hard to align this idea with the seemingly contradictory truth that greed, hatred, and harmful attributes within us are ugly and impure.

The one thing I do know is that only by opening the locked doors and recognizing and accepting the whole house can I begin to deal with the things I dislike.

Becoming "WHOLE" must be a central issue to whatever we are here on this world to do.
(hehe, perhaps it is the 'whole' thing)

Even with this understanding I still don't quite reconcile the inconguency of us being perfect and imperfect at the same time.

>>humans die and must therefore be flawed
Well, we are flawed. there is no getting around that we are greedy, hateful, harmful, etc. Do we just accept these things and say we are perfect? Do we just say that is part of being human?
There is something here, perhaps, that I refuse to grasp..

>>for those who speak most know least

Thus a lengthy treatise :)

>>Words mislead and every teacher is a charlatan
Heh, seems like we had this discussion a long time ago.

>>A man has only to walk firmly upon his own two feet and
>>he will see the world around him and he will hear the
>>sages singing in the deepest silences. When, at last, he
>>can communicate his enlightenment and the nature of his
>>spirit without speaking he will know all things.

Beautiful. For words, those seem pretty enlightened :)

Heh, you have to read the above and recognize other people who are more enlightened than us; Us, who love to hear ourselves talk. :)

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Replies:

oops, I just found out that MVD wrote this, not VD (No Txt) (NT) -- bill, 00:29:04 05/04/02 Sat