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Subject: Belt rankings, promotions, etc.


Author:
Steve Loftin
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Date Posted: 08:40:07 10/12/05 Wed

Let's be honest about this. This has always been a big problem in the MMA community. Because we have such a big influx of styles to contend with, I feel that some people have made this a really big issue.

In my view, belt rankings are nothing more than a gauge of one's abilities. If some one says, "Hey, Jim Bob has a black belt in BJJ," I will automatically figure on Jim Bob being a pretty good matwork and submissions guy. That goes with out saying.

If some one says, "Hey, Joe Bob has a black belt in Judo," I will assume that Joe Bob is a good thrower and has decent matwork and submission skills.

If some one says, "Hey, Billy Bob has a black belt in TKD," I will assume that Billy Bob is a good kicker and has decent speed and flexibility.

Using these 3 analogies of 3 different arts, could we say that all of these are "real" black belts? The BJJ guy will prolly tap out the TKD guy if it goes to the ground. The Judoka will prolly toss both of them if given the opportunity. And the TKD guy will try to use the skill he learned in his art to win the match.

So what is the deal? Does this mean that the loser is not worthy of his rank?

In my opinion, I feel like rank is a trivial thing. A black belt in BJJ from Mr. Rio might not be the same level of black belt form Mr. Sao Paulo. OR it could just be that one of them had a bad day on the mats.

I know it takes years of dedication and hard work to reach the advanced levels in any art. But I don't think it's right to discredit ANYBODY's ranking. Maybe you can say that fighter A is not on par with fighter B, but that is just attributes. It does not necessarily mean that Fighter A has not earned the black belt from his teacher.

Different strokes for different folks. Some people are good competitors, some people are good teachers, and very few are both. I have a promotion system set up within my small club. This is something that I did to give the guys a goal to work for. I have no affiliations and there is no one above me to tell me that I can't reward my people for their hard work. Training is training. If you are good at something then you are good whether you wear a colored belt or not. The mat is the truth.

I just notice that this is a big problem with our local and extended MMA community. I think it is something that needs to change. Think about how the quality of our people from NC would become if we could all get over our biases and get along good enough to support each other and train with each other. The possibilities are endless.

Just wanted to rant a bit and throw this out there. Any comments are appreciated.


Steve

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Replies:
[> Subject: Re: Belt rankings, promotions, etc.


Author:
whitfield
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Date Posted: 10:55:35 10/12/05 Wed

i have no problem with anyone that earns any belt they have and has legitimate credentials from a reputable instructor. i do have a problem with people buying their belts

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[> Subject: Re: Belt rankings, promotions, etc.


Author:
Ryan
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Date Posted: 11:32:24 10/12/05 Wed

"Earns", "legitimate", "reputable", etc.--they're all relative and subjective terms, which is the crux of the problem. Who cares? Why does it matter to you if someone says they are a black belt, and they received that belt from someone *you* deem disreputable or illegitimate?

I think everyone is better served by shutting up and training. A belt is a subjective benchmark--nothing more, nothing less.

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[> Subject: Re: Belt rankings, promotions, etc.


Author:
Tracey
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Date Posted: 12:15:06 10/12/05 Wed

What's your promotion system like Steve? Just curious and not criticizing in any way at all. I think each program/system/style should have a promotion system. I know the belt isn't everything but if nothing else, it rewards the student and shows progress and dedication.

By the way, I bought my belt from Atama. Those bastids charged me like $9 shipping on a $15 dollar product that weights about a pound. I've had it for about a year and am still mad about it. Does this make me a jiu jitsu fraud or just plain cheap?

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[> Subject: Re: Belt rankings, promotions, etc.


Author:
whitfield
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Date Posted: 16:36:51 10/12/05 Wed

""Earns", "legitimate", "reputable", etc.--they're all relative and subjective terms, which is the crux of the problem. Who cares? Why does it matter to you if someone says they are a black belt, and they received that belt from someone *you* deem disreputable or illegitimate?"

it matters because the general public can't tell the difference between a solid blue belt and a black belt. so what happens if somebody goes to a school with a blue belt that wears a black belt and the instruction they receive is incorrect and that person ends up getting hurt? well then it makes the whole art look bad now doesnt it? how would you feel if you went to the store to buy a sprite and what you got was an inferior product that was half sprite and half seltzer water? you can't tell any difference by looking at it, you won't know until you taste it.

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[> Subject: Re: Belt rankings, promotions, etc.


Author:
tapuout247
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Date Posted: 20:16:23 10/12/05 Wed

Belt Ranking in BJJ is most often based on the Gi work. Atheltics will beat Age and sometimes even experience, without the gi the majority of the time, but the Gi levels things out in my opinion.
I have been told that BJJ belts in Brazil are alot like TKD belts here in America. When bjj first came to the country the best instructors and students came. Guys my criterion for purple belt was the first one I ever trained with, Matt freaking Serra, live up to that standard of purple belt and you will be a blue belt forever.
Belts matter in running a school, they don't matter on the street.

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[> Subject: Re: Belt rankings, promotions, etc.


Author:
Ryan
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Date Posted: 22:35:56 10/12/05 Wed

So, you're telling me that the reason you care about someone's rank is because you are concerned about the safety of potential students? Um, okay.

So, what makes a black belt's instruction flawless? No one ever gets hurt under the instruction of a black belt? There are blue belts teaching all over the place, what does that say about them?

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[> [> Subject: Re: Belt rankings, promotions, etc.


Author:
Scott Shields
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Date Posted: 22:46:12 10/12/05 Wed

I think I'm going to side with Ryan on this one guys. Last time I checked Matt Hughes was a white belt, as is Frank Shamrock. I understand the concern about safety for the students but this belt stuff is very, very subjective. I have seen black belts in BJJ that weren't very good and they were legit. I have also seen many blue belts in BJJ that were incredible. Not sure what difference any of that stuff makes.I agree with Steve though, about belts for goals for students and instructors alike.

Thanks,
Scott Shields

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[> Subject: Re: Belt rankings, promotions, etc.


Author:
Billy D.
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Date Posted: 00:23:44 10/13/05 Thu

Ok,I take it you guys have turned this into about BJJ belts." Last time I checked Matt Hughes was a white belt, as is Frank Shamrock",exactly.I would not want to learn BJJ from them.I would how ever train for mma with them.
""Earns", "legitimate", "reputable", etc.--they're all relative and subjective terms, which is the crux of the problem. Who cares?Why does it matter to you if someone says they are a black belt, and they received that belt from someone *you* deem disreputable or illegitimate?",well first off,if they are lying about thier rank,in most professions that has a fancy name.Fraud!Reguardless of how good the guy is,if he's lying about his rank,he's a lier.Now if some one doubts their rank or that persons instructors judgment or ability,settle it on the mat.
Now as far as lower than a black belt teaching,it happens.I do not disagree with blue,purple,or brown belts teaching.Should they charge the same?No.Can a blue belt teach as good as a purple belt?In most cases,no.They lack the expieriance with the moves and really only have a basic understanding.

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[> Subject: Re: Belt rankings, promotions, etc.


Author:
James Speight
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Date Posted: 01:53:53 10/13/05 Thu






Hey I enjoyed this story of a Chimpanzee Earning his legitimate Chuck Norris Black Belt in Karate













Click Here For The Story





And here is his blog too-Click here




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[> Subject: Re: Belt rankings, promotions, etc.


Author:
Ses
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Date Posted: 08:04:00 10/13/05 Thu

"Everything is money in America." That's the phrase that remains in my head on the first day that I opened RingSkilz.
A store owner (from Russia) gave me thoes words as a form of encouragement when he saw me moving into the building.

When it comes to martial arts in the U.S. anyone who can obtain a buisness licence can call themselves "Master" of whatever art he/she wants.....even BJJ!!! You can't make them roll to prove or disprove their skills, they'll call the cops and hit you with an assault charge.

( I have seen black belts in BJJ that weren't very good and they were legit. I have also seen many blue belts in BJJ that were incredible. Not sure what difference any of that stuff makes.)

The difference is Skill Scott, you nailed it in this sentence. People see it and recognize it, People are just better at different things.

I once trained with a Wing Chun instructor who was quite
reputable in the Maryland area. One night he was going over
self defense senarios and I interrupted and asked "What would stop me from hitting you with a Double leg take down, pounding you out and then applying a submission?" He said,
"Nothing.....but you still wouldn't know Wing Chun." What a revalation. I could've asked my boxing and kickboxing coach the same thing and the point would be made. I could've bothered my Judo coach everyday about strikes and the point would have been made.

Therefore,I try to apply that lesson to everyone I train with in my lifetime. Everyone has something to offer. If you look without judgement, you'll find it.

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[> Subject: Re: Belt rankings, promotions, etc.


Author:
Ryan
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Date Posted: 08:29:27 10/13/05 Thu

Okay, you guys keep changing the standards. No one said anything about lying about rank, until now. How is it lying if you received a certain rank from a certain instructor? If X says, I got my black belt from Y, and Y confirms it, that's not lying. Just because you think Y isn't "legit" doesn't make it a lie. This is where the subjective side of things comes into play.

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[> Subject: Re: Belt rankings, promotions, etc.


Author:
Steve Loftin
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Date Posted: 08:40:04 10/13/05 Thu

Good posts here. I agree with a number of you. Whitfield made a good analogy about the sprite/seltzer water issue. My opinion on that goes to the fact that it is the fault of the student. Yeah, I know it sounds bad, but it had to be said.

It's like buying a car. Just because it looks good on the outside, doesn't means that it runs all that well. The same goes for MA instruction. It is the consumer's responsibility to educate themselves on what they are buying. Just because an instructor wears a shiny black belt doesn't mean that they teach effective techniques. In a perfect world we wouldn't have the fraud that we have today. But that it not always the case.

In our chosen area of MMA & grappling arts, we have a litmus test of the competition arena. If we see that an person is effective in competition then we wanna train with them. Why would I train with Slim Goodbody when I can train with Royce or Shamrock for the same price? But it all goes back to me being educated about who these people are and what they can offer me.

Read Ses' post. He nailed it on the head.

On the case of guys like Matt Hughes, Frank Shamrock, etc. being white belts....they are. Plain and simple. They are white belts in BJJ, in Judo, in TKD, in Karate, so on and so on. But does that mean they are not effective? NO. They train just like anyone esle does. They just choose to not hold (or maybe publicize?) a ranking in any martial art. Maybe it is just not that important to them.

I think why so many people refer back to the BJJ system is because of Royce's involvement with the first UFC. He was crushing people from other arts who held black belts as well. Royce showed the real deal and no one can dispute that. So that is why so many people refer back to the BJJ ranking system. I don't think it is meant as a slam on BJJ, it is more of a respect thing. Because people know what to expect from BJJ.

Tracey:

My promotion system? Glad you asked. It is a simple program designed to teach basic foundational skills above all else. It is divided up into seven different stages with novice being a white belt level and master being a black belt level. The only required techniques are taught during the first 3 levels with the upper levels devoted to perfecting the techniques themselves. More importantly, the upper levels are devoted to learning how to coach and train others.

In order to progress to the next rank, you must have a minimum time requirement at each level as well as a solid understanding of the techniques required for that level. If you know all the techniques, but haven't put the time in...you don't progress. And vice versa. This weeds out anyone not really dedicated to learning the system. I don't want "fly by night" guys training with me. My goal is to develop a solid team. This is what I'm doing so far. That's why you can count my team guys on one hand. The same people who are with me now, have proven to be dedicated to training. This is where I'll pass on my knowledge and then they can pass on their knowledge to future students.

The key thing is that we are all still learning. We train whenever we can and with whoever we can. We have worked out with wrestlers, boxers, Judoka, BJJers, shootfighters, and karate people. It doesn't really matter as long as we learn something. That's what I look for in my club/team.

Within the system, it is required at the upper levels to cross train in different arts. Anything that will help you expand is permitted. Things like jacket wrestling, striking arts, and even self protection type styles are all good. I realize that different people are gonna be good at different things. It is my job to encourage that rather than discourage it.

In short, that's it. Now, I haven't gone out and bought a rank. But if I did, it really wouldn't matter. All it is is a piece of paper saying how good someone thought I was on a particular day. It's like a tournament win. I am happy to get a trophy to bring home and show to my sons. It means I worked hard to win. But in the long run, if I am not able to TEACH what I have learned to my students then I am no good to any of them.

People who know me or have seen me roll can tell you all about me. I ain't flashy, I ain't slick, and I ain't even very good! But I love what I do and I want to be the best that I can at it. I still have a lot to learn and will continue to train until my body is in the grave. And even then, my soul will be loosed and I plan on wrestling with some of those big angels in Heaven! I heard they know submission.

"And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. And he said, let me go for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me." - Genesis 33:24-26

God bless y'all.


Steve

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[> Subject: Re: Belt rankings, promotions, etc.


Author:
Phillip Rhodes
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Date Posted: 09:21:30 10/13/05 Thu

It is the consumer's responsibility to educate themselves on what they are buying.


Responsibility? Phhffffttt... that doesn't exist anymore. What year are you living in? Didn't you know that everybody is a victim now and everybody has some entitlement, by birthright, to be protected from harm at all times? It doesn't matter how stupid or careless you are these days, it's *always* somebody else's fault.

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[> Subject: Re: Belt rankings, promotions, etc.


Author:
Steve Loftin
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Date Posted: 09:29:59 10/13/05 Thu

That is one of the problems with most people today. Our country is turning into a nation of ignorant pansies who refuse take responsibility for their own actions.

Harsh, but true.

No offense to any pansies out there. :)



Steve

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[> Subject: Re: Belt rankings, promotions, etc.


Author:
Tracey
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Date Posted: 11:35:23 10/13/05 Thu

I think Phil hit the head on the nail. Everyone is a victim and no one accepts responsibility for thier actions. Plain and simple.

Steve- I think people refer to the BJJ system not only because of Royce but I have not heard of another system where it is so difficult to obtain a black belt. There are the 3-4 year phenoms but usually 8-10 years. By that time, you could earn 3 black belts in other systems. And I'm not saying BJJ is the be all end all. Every art has strenghts and weaknesses however I think BJJ is the most difficult to progress in by far.

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[> Subject: Re: Belt rankings, promotions, etc.


Author:
Ryan
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Date Posted: 12:21:50 10/13/05 Thu

Is it really that "difficult", or does it just take a long time? I don't think they are necessarily the same. Thoughts?

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[> Subject: Re: Belt rankings, promotions, etc.


Author:
Tracey
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Date Posted: 14:07:25 10/13/05 Thu

Good point Ryan. You are right, they aren't the same. In my opinion, I think both though. I don't think you get the belt for just showing up for 10 years. I think BJJ has a higher attrition rate than other arts for people getting a black belt. Maybe 1 in 100 get a BB in other arts whereas 1 in 1000 get a BB in BJJ. I just made up the numbers but do see what I mean?

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[> Subject: Re: Belt rankings, promotions, etc.


Author:
Joe Hurst
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Date Posted: 14:58:03 10/13/05 Thu

That is a good pic of me.

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[> Subject: Re: Belt rankings, promotions, etc.


Author:
Phillip Rhodes
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Date Posted: 15:00:25 10/13/05 Thu

That is a good pic of me.

LOL...

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[> Subject: Re: Belt rankings, promotions, etc.


Author:
Ryan
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Date Posted: 23:00:15 10/13/05 Thu

Joe, that's some funny s!$t!

Tracey, I do see what you mean, though I tend to think it is even more subjective and political in BJJ than in many other arts. I don't mean to slight anyone, because I consider the BJJ black belt a *tremendous* achievement, just not the holy grail that many others do.

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[> Subject: Re: Belt rankings, promotions, etc.


Author:
Tracey
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Date Posted: 13:08:18 10/14/05 Fri

No denying the politics in BJJ. It's there for sure. There have been several posts on this and other forums perfectly illustrating it. However, if anyone would say after 10 years of training that they are a black belt in whatever other art, no one would give it a second thought.

It's not the holy grail but it is significant. Personally I'll more than likely never achieve it and I work out pretty consistently. That's fine by me though. I'm just enjoying the ride.

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[> Subject: Re: Belt rankings, promotions, etc.


Author:
Ryan
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Date Posted: 13:24:02 10/14/05 Fri

"I'm just enjoying the ride."

That's the way it should be, my friend.

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[> Subject: Re: Belt rankings, promotions, etc.


Author:
Steve Loftin
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Date Posted: 08:55:35 10/15/05 Sat

LOL @ Joe....you need a good razor, bro.

The BJJ time frame for belts is definitely tough. But, I think that all goes to who your teacher is. There is no doubt that teachers in any art hold some of their students back just to get them competition ready. This goes for BJJ, Sport TKD, whatever. It's just natural that some teachers do this.

Take a look at Judo. Most people like to compare the ranks of black belt in BJJ versus the black belt in Judo. But these are definitely not the same. By all accounts that I have heard, the 1st degree black belt in Judo is merely a teaching rank. This shows that the Judoka now "BEGINS" the journey as an advanced practitioner of his art. Whereas in BJJ, the 1st degree black belt would be considered a highly advanced practioner of his art already. That is where the difference lies.

Many people who are BJJ black belts today started out teaching as a blue belt and then progressed up the ranks. Because a lot of people did not have ready access to black belt coaches at the time, this was normal. But with Judo, the lowest belt rank I have ever seen teach would be one of the Brown belt levels. It's just a variation of styles within the arts. So you can't really compare things by belt rank. You have to look at it by skill levels.


Steve

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[> Subject: Re: Belt rankings, promotions, etc.


Author:
whitfield
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Date Posted: 03:05:08 10/16/05 Sun

in response to ryan's sarcastic comment waaay back up there, yes i do care about people getting injured due to improper teaching practices. i dont care who gets injured in a tkd or karate school or what judo club or shootfighting school. but i am a bjj instructor and i run a bjj school. if somebody goes to a bjj school in new jersey and gets injured because the teacher is a moron, then they move to north carolina, they arent gunna come to my school to learn bjj, they're going to go to the local karate school where they dont ever have to touch anyone. therefore yes i do care about people getting injured while practicing bjj because it effects my business and my livelihood.

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[> Subject: Re: Belt rankings, promotions, etc.


Author:
Ryan
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Date Posted: 22:20:37 10/16/05 Sun

I'll ask again, then:

"So, what makes a black belt's instruction flawless? No one ever gets hurt under the instruction of a black belt? There are blue belts teaching all over the place, what does that say about them?"

I'm sorry, but I find it difficult to believe that is THE reason for your "problem" with *perceived* illegitimacy. Maybe I'm wrong--I hope I am, but I doubt it.

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[> Subject: Re: Belt rankings, promotions, etc.


Author:
Ryan
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Date Posted: 08:08:30 10/17/05 Mon

On another note, if you eat at X fast food restaurant, and you find a finger in your food, is that a blanket indictment of all fast food restaurants and chains? Do you then stop eating at fast food restaurants?

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[> Subject: Re: Belt rankings, promotions, etc.


Author:
whitfield
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Date Posted: 17:29:47 10/20/05 Thu

no i wouldnt stop eating fast food all together, but if i found a finger in my grilled stuffed burrito i sure wouldnt be able to eat at taco bell anymore... and nothing makes a black belts instruction better than a blue or purple belts instruction, but by the outsider, the black belt is considered to be the pinnacle. if somebody gets hurt while training with a purple belt, then its much easier to think "well it was just this one instructor and he doesnt understand the way to train people completely" but when somebody gets injured training under a black belt they think "damn this is the best this art can do?" see with a lower rank it becomes the instructor's fault, with a black belt people will be more likely to blame the whole art

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[> Subject: Re: Belt rankings, promotions, etc.


Author:
Ses
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Date Posted: 06:04:39 10/21/05 Fri

If we were to equate this to sports, would the coach of a pro team be blamed for the injury of a world class athlete in training. Would it make the coach "ill legit" so to speak.

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[> Subject: Re: Belt rankings, promotions, etc.


Author:
Ryan
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Date Posted: 10:23:59 10/21/05 Fri

I'll just agree to disagree. I don't think anyone judges an entire system based on someone getting hurt under the tutelage of a "black belt".

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[> Subject: Re: Belt rankings, promotions, etc.


Author:
Jesse
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Date Posted: 16:31:39 10/24/05 Mon

just a few thoughts of mine.

i've never been taught by a black belt, but i've beaten a lot of people who have.

winning a tournament in your respective belt is a much greater accomplishment than aquiring a new belt.

getting a new belt only matters 'in-house' unless you compete while wearing it.

and as far as the legitmacy of a jiujitsu school in terms of it's instructor's rank... that's a pretty shallow analysis of a school. you gotta take it case by case, just like every other person with a certification, belt, or degree. in essence, you are hiring a teacher, so your research better include more than just identifying the color of the teacher's belt.

whatever color you can hang with is the color you should wear. but if you want the belt for marketing concerns feel free, i understand, i'm not trying to run a business though, i'm just trying to uphold my horrible self image with the ability to kick ass...

lol.
ps jared weiner in philly is a pretty cool teacher.

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[> Subject: Re: Belt rankings, promotions, etc.


Author:
Joe
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Date Posted: 14:23:40 10/25/05 Tue

Caveman = Dave Jackson is white belt and doesn't want a belt yet is 3-0 in MMA

I agree with Ryan, he doesnt care what BB or Green belt taught a guy he just likes to compete David Serano sp? who taught him, I don't know if he has a belt or not or if it even matters.

I am proud of my belt, and the fact that the BB that gave it to me thought I was one. He is the only one who has to. I trained with Caveman in MMA and JJ and he dont care what belt a man is just how the man fights. A good man once told me as long as you tie a belt around your waist you will care what level it is, I believe this to be true. For example, you train 7 years and your still a blue belt, it may bother you your teacher thinks you are only blue level... etc.

But Caveman really doesnt like Grappling tourneys but has done the last two Bud events and lost only 2-0 against the heavy Pro winner Marc laimons Brown Belt "Country" who is very tough.

Also this year won all matchs in ADV. Super Heavy and Heavy weights tired out in the finals for the Heavy that went last. He will be doing the Bud World Cup Jan 14th and 15th.

Belts are a sign of respect to ones academy, but the rest is on the mat.

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[> Subject: Re: Belt rankings, promotions, etc.


Author:
Joe
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Date Posted: 15:04:03 10/25/05 Tue

I can kick higher than that, when the pic was taken it was 10 am so I wasn't stretched out.

As one can see all those dental visits paid off look at those pearly whites.

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[> Subject: Re: Belt rankings, promotions, etc.


Author:
Scott D
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Date Posted: 15:13:03 11/06/05 Sun

Ok, haha, i've sat here and read this entire thread, and Although i'm a very educated man, i'm not sure exactly what the debate here is really all about... there are too many debates, this should be broken down into several different threads... if you train in BJJ, in the GI, then belts are important... it's designed to give an infastructure to the academy and serve as a signature of one's developement in the art... i've been teaching BJJ since i was a blue belt... i have competed and won respectively at each rank from white, blue, purple, and brown, so i know that my rank is compatible w/in the standards of the BJJ system... generally speaking there is a difference between the teachings of a blue belt and a black, although i think a high level blue is more than capable of leading a team or an academy... many people say that a blue belt knows all the same techniques as a blackbelt, but that is not rationally possible... as a blue, (unless you've a blue for many years) you may know the machanics of most of the basic techniques, but you lack the sensitivity, timing, and advanced details of the execution that comes w/ time and dedication to the art... as far as accidents, they happen... they happen under the tutilage of blue through black belt instructors... aslong as you are participating in a contact sport, accidents are unavoidable... we can't neccessarilly relate that to the rank of the instructor... as far as "illigitamate ranks" it happens, fortunately, i'm not aware of any illigitamate blackbelts in NC...

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