Magic's assertions and some history -- McKinsey's Biblical Errancy Forum Group

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Date Posted: 17:06:14 03/09/02 Sat
Author: Rev Gadfly
Subject: Magic's assertions and some history

>Magic wrote:
>You were misguided in saying that "the gospels Jesus was >refering to are the gospels written after his (His) death". >Jesus himself is the gospel, the good news. He fulfills
Isaiah 61:1-3.

RevG
LOL. Let's take this one step at a time. First, let's take a look at Jesus' misreading of Isaiah 61.

*NASB Luke 4:17-19 [Reading from Isaiah 61], "18 And recovery of sight to the blind, ...."

That isn't written in Isaiah, or the Dead Sea Scrolls. It supposedly exists in the LXX, but that is a poor Greek translation, and there is no evidence that this LXX even existed in Jesus' time. Let's review a little history of the possibility that Jesus read from the LXX.

"No copy of the original translation exists; textual difficulties abound: Source: http://www.bartleby.com/65/se/Septuagi.html

The LXX itself is historically invisible, almost an urban legend. The fiction is that 72 elder Jews, 6 from each of the 12 tribes [which no longer existed by that time] were each separated, put in solitude in a room, and came out of
their rooms at the appointed time with a complete Greek protobible agreeing in every word in the translation.
A sign of this fiction is the number LXX, which was ROMAN for 70, if it was done by 72 elders, why was it not called the LXXII?

The earliest LXX goes back to Origen, a second century CE man, who is held up as proof of the original, no the grounds that he 'merely copied it'. For all we know he was the author of the LXX -- no previous references are made to it? So he wrote it 100 years after the NT was supposedly written, and 400 years after these amazing Jews, who no one seemed to notice at the time. The LXX is merely the second column of Origen's Hexapia. So the earliest thing which can be considered the LXX was written AFTER Jesus' time. If it came after Jesus' time; interpolation was extremely possible -- afterall, xians were the one's using the LXX.

Also, we have Jesus and other Jews referring to Gentiles as
'dogs'; now why would Jews read the language of 'dogs' over their own Hebrew? For to read from the LXX would be to read Greek to a Jewish assembly.

Would it be too much to expect Jesus to be able to use Hebrew and read Hebrew in a Jewish synagogue? There is no reason to believe that Jesus went up in front and read Greek out of a Greek translation!

So since we see both evidence of interpolation, and that it is absurd to believe that a man who could not even read the Hebrew, was somehow a gospel. Also, Isaiah 61 doesn't stop after the third verse, where did Jesus fulfill the remaining verses? This is an example of Christians taking the scriptures out of context for their own ends.

Magic
>He IS the gospel.

RevG
No, he was an uneducated lout. Look at his ignorance:

John 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven.
vs.
Gen. 5:24, Enoch ascends into heaven without dying. [outdoing Jesus] and
II Kings 2: 11 Elijah ascends into heaven without dying. [also outdoing Jesus]

Not much of a gospel if he couldn't even remember the Elijah story.

Magic
>All Christians who spread the Word of God are speaking the gospel.

RevG
Since different Christian sects preach different messages and have different theologies, your statement is based on an ignorance of the historical realities of Christianity.

Magic
>Gospel in its original translation means "good news". The good news is that Jesus came and died for us, so that we could be reconciled to God, and He was buried and rose again showing that He had conquered over our sins, because there was NO way that we could be saved.

RevG
This is based on the mystery religions of the near east and has nothing to do with Judaism or the Jewish Scriptures; you are mistaking Mithraism for Judaism if you think that Jesus is its fulfillment. In Judaism, one finds his own relationship with god, it isn't made for him by some dying demigod.

Magic
>Check out Isaiah 53 and you'll see, also Psalm 22. The reason why people spoke and wrote of Him is because they watched Him fulfill the Old Testament, word by word, for He IS the Word itself.

RevG
Isaiah 53 has absolutely nothing to do with the messiah, or the pagan Christ savior. Here is a little evidence:

verse 7: "He was oppressed and He was afflicted."
- Jesus was not oppressed, he went where he wanted, said what he wanted, destroyed what he wanted [the swine herd], and even had armed retainers.

verse 7: "He opened NOT his mouth."
- Jesus spoke when he was arrested.
- Jesus spoke when before the Council.
- Jesus spoke when before Pilate.
- Jesus spoke to the women on the way to execution.
- Jesus spoke on the cross, repeatedly.

verse 9; "He had done no violence"
- Jesus armed his retainers.
- Jesus attacked the money changers in the temple.
- Jesus destroyed property.
- Jesus had wet dreams of murdering people. (Luke 19:27).

verse 9: "Nor was there deceit in his mouth."
- Jesus lied to his family about going up to Jerusalem. (John 7:8-10)
- Jesus lied to the High Priest, by saying that he never taught in secret; irrespective of the FACT, that the NT shows he did most of his teachings in secret. (John 18:20, vs. Matt. 24:3, Mark 9:28, Luke 9:10, Luke 10:23, John 7: 3-5, etc

verse 10: "He will see his offspring,...."
- This does not apply to celibate Jesus who died around 33; and everywhere in the Hebrew Scriptures, the use of "offspring" means physical descendants.

verse 10: "He will prolong his days."
- This cannot apply to an eternal being with no beginning or end; the very passage indicates an ending of days.
- Also, Jesus was executed. Ending his days.

verse 12: "I will allot him a portion with the great."
- So much for being the son of YHWH; or part of the trinity.
- He receives an allotment, since God already owns everything, then the idea that God RECEIVES an allotment with the Great is a denial of God.
- The Great are not removed or brought low; only that the faithful will be given an allotment. In its proper context, it refers to Israel collectively, and the allotment is the holy land itself.

Isaiah 53 does not refer to Jesus, his life is a contradiction of it. Isaiah 53 is about the JEWS.

As for real messanic prophecies, did he fulfill this one?
[Tanakh JPS] II Sam. 7:12-16, "12 When your days are done and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, one of your own issue, and I will establish his kingship. 13 He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish his royal throne forever. 14 I will be a father to him, and he shall be a son to Me. *When he does wrong*, I will chastise him with the rod of men and the affliction of mortals; but I will never withdraw My favor from him as I withdrew it from Saul, whom I removed to make room for you. Your house and your kingship shall ever be secure before you; your throne shall be established
forever."

Note the words:
*When he does wrong*, I will chastise him
*When he does wrong*, I will chastise him
*When he does wrong*, I will chastise him

As we can see the messiah is a man, with the failings of a man; or is Magic going to argue that Jesus fulfilled the above?

Magic
>You can't possibly understand the bible through just >logical thinking, because it won't make any sense.

RevG
If you are foolish enough to trust your 'soul' to something that doesn't make sense, then you deserve to loose it. The Qur'an doesn't make any sense either, do you trust it? If not, then why the double standard.

Magic
>A God who stops water from flowing? A God who can >completely part a sea and let people walk through so they >could be free? Doesn't make much sense. How did it happen? God did it.

RevG
No, those things never happened. Before continuing to make a fool of yourself, read "The Bible Unearthed; archaeology's new vision of ancient Israel and the origin of its sacred
texts" by Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman; they prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Exodus never happened, and David's empire is a myth. Or if you want to know the truth about the historical Jesus, read "The Jesus Mysteries: was the original Jesus a pagan god?" by Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy. They argue very effectively that the first Christians were Gnostics and that Jesus is a symbolic figure, not a historical one. In their argument, everyone is both Jesus and Christ, the Jesus represents the lower man [flesh] and the Christ represents the higher man [spirit]. Jesus Christ is allegory.

Magic
>If you don't believe it could happen, then you can't >believe that there is a God. And not only that, but a God >that loves YOU (1 John 4).

RevG
LOL. I am a Deist, I believe in a God but not the stupid insipid stories of the bible which blaspheme the God concept. As for the stupid idea that this biblegod is love, have you forgotten how YHWH ordered David to carry out a census, and then killed 70,000 people because did what he was told? 2 Samuel 24:1, 15-17

Thomas Paine worded it this way about the bible:

"A man, by hearing all this nonsense lumped and preached together, confounds the God of Creation with the imagined God of the Christians, and lives as if there were none."

Magic
>Here again, I read the passage between Jesus and the >spirit: Jesus is speaking to the TYPE of spirit that was >IN the man. Read the verses before that and you'll see >what the spirit was doing to the boy. Jesus was talking to >the TYPE of spirit that it was, NOT that the spirit itself >was deaf and dumb.

RevG
If the spirit was deaf, then how did it hear Jesus? Are your thinking skills this defective?

Magic
>There are MANY commandments in the old testament, not just >the 10 commandments. Everything else in the bible rests on >those 10 commandments, and there are more commandments.

RevG
Only proving that they are written, not that any god had anything to do with them being written.

Magic
>If the bible is so wrong, then tell me what kind of world >would we have if EVERYONE followed the 10 Commandments? >Would it be the same as it is today? Do you think you >could follow the 10 commandments by yourself with no help? >I'd like to see you try...Get more from the Web.

RevG
The 10 commandments? The only thing called the ten commandments are these:

Exodus 34: 11-28. It goes largely like this:
1)Make no Covenants with other religions; instead, practice religious intolerance.
2)You will have no other god than YHWH.
3)There will be no intermarriage with peoples of other faiths or cultures.
4)Observe the Feast of the Unleavened Bread
5)The firstborn shall be redeemed, or its neck broken; including children.
6)Keep the Sabbath
7)Observe the Feast of Weeks, and Feast of Ingathering.
8)Three times a year the males shall gather before the Lord God.
9)No blood shall be offered with leaven bread. [Jesus' Last Supper is a violation of this commandment]
10) You shall not boil a kid in its mother's milk.

The 10 commandments are useless for morality; common sense is far superior.

peace

Rev Gadfly
--
II Cor. 12:16, "Nevertheless, crafty fellow that I am, I took you in by DECEIT."

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