VoyForums
[ Show ]
Support VoyForums
[ Shrink ]
VoyForums Announcement: Programming and providing support for this service has been a labor of love since 1997. We are one of the few services online who values our users' privacy, and have never sold your information. We have even fought hard to defend your privacy in legal cases; however, we've done it with almost no financial support -- paying out of pocket to continue providing the service. Due to the issues imposed on us by advertisers, we also stopped hosting most ads on the forums many years ago. We hope you appreciate our efforts.

Show your support by donating any amount. (Note: We are still technically a for-profit company, so your contribution is not tax-deductible.) PayPal Acct: Feedback:

Donate to VoyForums (PayPal):

Thursday, April 25, 1:53:25Login ] [ Main index ] [ Post a new message ] [ Search | Check update time | Archives: 1[2]345678910 ]
Subject: Re: Changed My Mind


Author:
Tracy (Grateful for your Feedback)
[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]
Date Posted: 03/22/09 4:12pm
In reply to: Heather 's message, "Re: Changed My Mind" on 03/22/09 2:55pm

Hi ladies and thanks so very much for your well thought out and supportive responses. I am not sure if I clarified that this pregnancy was actually very much planned. My DH had been asking me if our attempts had been successful, and I feel terrible, as I have lied to him and told him, "No". I also feel extremely guilty for being so ambivalent and detached given that my DH is a great man and is very much on board re having children. I have gone into complete panic mode and am in denial in a huge way. I am also going through the "Cannnot love another as I love the ones I have way too much" type phase. And whilst I realise that many women go through this - the degree to which I feel this is out of proportion - it is almost dysfunctional.

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Replies:
[> [> [> Subject: Re: Changed My Mind


Author:
Pat
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 03/22/09 7:48pm

Hi, Tracy,

I also appreciate your feedback very much.

Let me assure you. You WILL love your baby. This is especially true if you breastfeed, but even if you don't, you will love your baby. Most likely, you will love your baby long before he or she is born.

We have seven children, all grown. I love each of them fiercely. There is no less love for the youngest than for the oldest, or any in between. At times, one child or another has broken our hearts. The good thing is that sooner or later, they go back to being the person they once were. But the fact that they could break our hearts shows how much we care. And by the way, two of our children were adopted. And I breastfed everyone, and homeschooled everyone, to the best of my ability.

Perhaps you are low on vitamins and minerals. I recommend you take prenatal vitamins. They may help. Also, there are several safe things that can be taken, and this is, of course, up to you. One is phosphatidyl choline. This is nothing more than a particular compound of a B vitamin. Another is evening primrose oil. This contains gamma linolenic acid, something your body makes anyway. If you take one when you are feeling panic, and the panic goes away, that's a sign your adrenal glands are not functioning as they should. If you eat foods with monosodium glutimate, this can cause this problem. Also, stay away from artificially sweetened food and drink. Get plenty of protein. If you are a vegetarian, you could also be suffering from malnutrition. Pregnancy will aggravate this problem.

I hope this helps.

Hugs,
Pat
[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Changed My Mind


Author:
Tracy
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 03/23/09 8:01am

Pat - I will take your advice re the prenatal vitamins. I am not a vegetarian but I must admit, my current diet is very shoddy indeed. I am hoping that this might stabilise my thought processes.
I should admit to you, that as a qualified social worker, the effects of abortion on women do concern me. Even taking away the rights of the unborn child - I have, in the past, wondered about the impact on the mental health of the mother. Certainly now, as I contemplate abortion, I feel terrified that I would awake from such a procedure an emotional wreck - inconsolable.
[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Changed My Mind


Author:
Pat
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 03/23/09 11:55pm

Hi, Tracy,

From what you describe, I'd have to say that improving your diet might have a significant impact. Good luck with this.

Thank you also for your testimony of your expertise and your thoughts regarding a woman having an abortion, and the impact it will have on her emotionally. It HAS been learned a woman is 3 1/2 times as likely to commit suicide after abortion, over the risk if she carried to term. Heightened risk of death by violent means lasts for a year, and the overall risk lasts for about eight years.

The person who reported this study said that a woman who is having trouble with depression is a poor risk for abortion.

The only answer, then, is hang in there, take one day at a time.

It does pass. I know this from experience.

Hugs,
Pat
[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Changed My Mind


Author:
Tracy
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 03/24/09 3:55am

Pat - this is the thing that has thusfar stopped me. As a clinician, I know the stats and the research, and I do not doubt it. I have come across the occasional woman who seriously appears to have "no regrets" - but I am wondering how many women can truly say that at the end of the day. And one cannot predict exactly which "camp" they might fall into post abortion. This is why I am alarmed to find myself feeling this way. Once again, taking morality out of it - taking the rights of the unborn out of the equation (hard to do) - what happens to the emotional life of the woman involved? This is where the pro-choice stance appears to have no definitive answers. And this is what has kept me from doing anything to end my pregnancy. That fear of deep and unrelenting regret.

Have you ladies encountered anyone on here who has aborted, and been seemingly okay with it afterwards? I really appreciate your posts, btw.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Changed My Mind


Author:
Heather
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 03/24/09 6:42pm

Hi Tracy,

I volunteered for awhile as a P.A.S.S (Post Abortion Stress Syndrome) counselor at our local pregnancy resource center because there was such a need for this demographic of women. The abortion clinics couldn't offer this service without acknowledging the liability, so they could offer only referrals, some sliding scale - but none free.

What I noted with interest during my time doing that counseling is how few women I saw who had just had abortions. I think there is a certain period of denial. There were a few who were within a month or two of their abortion, but most were a year or more, sometimes many years, after the fact of their abortion and were just now coming to terms with it.

This is one reason why I am thankful when I see women considering abortion being encouraged to not to react hastily to the fear we all have when something unplanned and seemingly daunting comes to us. Abortion is so huge, so much more than merely 'removing a pregnancy.'

And as you note, there is a huge portion of that that is concern for women. We have instincts! And we don't do well when pressured either from within or without to overrule them.

Heather
[> [> [> Subject: Re: Changed My Mind


Author:
Melanie
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 03/24/09 6:32am

Tracy,

You might be surprised just how common the ambivalence is even with planned pregnancies.

I have a friend who went through ambivalence with her last pregnancy, and it was very much a planned at wanted pregnancy at the time. I was also surprised when I visited her in the hospital and she almost seemed detached to another one of her children and I even talked to her about it. After the first day, she becomes super attached and just like a mama bear with her cub. She loves all of her children dearly.

At any rate, your fears are not so abnormal. Taking care of yourself, I'm sure will make a big difference as to how you feel. It certainly can't hurt.

Hang in there.

--Melanie
[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Changed My Mind


Author:
Tracy
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 03/26/09 6:13am

Thanks so very much for all the feedback, etc.
However, I have at last identified the major reasons for just NOT being able to continue with this hidden pregnancy. My husband and I have an outwardly "good life" - he is supposedly (I say supposedly) Christian man and a good provider, etc - but our marriage is a farce and it has fallen apart. I cannot continue on in this. And I cannot in all good consciousness bring a child into this world to be a victim of this lunacy. My husband is hell bent on building his dream house - the total project cost is something like $4 million AUD. That is obviously big dollars. He is going to break us financially. He feels that financial worth is a measure of success as a person, yes, in spite of his Presbyterian leanings and shock and horror if someone says a swear word. I guess you could call him a legalistic Christian who has no rel/ship with God/Jesus. I have struggled for years with the Christian faith, and I have finally admitted to myself why. It is my husband. He is a hypocrite. We are arguing daily about the house project and the children are witnessing it. I cannot tell friends about it, because when you start talking about these kinds of figures ($) people start to become resentful and/or envious a lot of the time. He is fevered about this stuff. I am a wreck. I present an outwardly good persona to others through the day, but I am not coping at all. I hate the shallowness of our lives. Our marriage is stuffed - it is over - I am going to tell him this officially.
I cannot continue the preg and adopt a child out here - I would need my husband's consent, which he would never give. I feel I am going to have to take the risk of damaging my mental health in order to protect and focus on the kids I have here with me. I am between a rock and a hard place. I can hardly breathe. It is late at night, and my husband is on night shift at the hospital and the kids are asleep. I wish I could fall down the stairs and miscarry. Sorry to unleash all of this.
[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Changed My Mind


Author:
Pat
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 03/26/09 10:28pm

Tracy,

God gave you a child for a reason. We don't know what God's reason is, but we HAVE to trust Him! Seriously! This is a GIFT from God! Why should your baby pay for your husband's misbehavior? That's totally unjust, and I suspect you know it.

Do you really want to throw God's gift in His face? You know this baby was made in the image of God, Who came and DIED for this little one!

You're not just looking at your mental health here, but your eternal salvation. Will you turn against God because you have an abortion? Lots of women have! YOU do the righteous thing, and turn your husband over to God. He WILL deal with him, in his own time.

I can't tell you all the details here, but I will tell you briefly of my own story. When we got married, I was sure my husband was a Christian. I found out shortly after we were married that he wasn't. My husband shared in the same kind of ambition as yours. Life with him was difficult, but I won't go into the details. One day, I told God, do whatever you have to do to me to bring my husband to the foot of the cross. Even take my life if need be. And yes, the atmosphere was very hard on the children, and they suffered. We have been married for nearly 43 years, and God gave us seven precious children, two by adoption. Life got even harder. We had serious financial difficulties. There were months on end when there was no income at all! The total was over six years. I often would cling to Jesus as if I were hanging from a cliff by my fingernails. I couldn't pray many times. I kept asking WHY? Well, now I know.

As a result of the faithfulness of the children and me, his mother became a Christian just days before she died. If it hadn't been for this, she would have been condemned forever. And less than a year ago, my husband finally cemented his faith with baptism. The difference was profound! Suddenly, whereas before he couldn't accept that Jesus is God, now he is totally confident of it. Totally. This is nothing short of a miracle that was wrought by the Holy Spirit. And he treats me like a queen, and he is wonderful to me!

And we now have eight precious grandchildren as well. Two of them were also adopted.

Here's what I think you need to do. Go to God in prayer. Be earnest about it. Surrender TOTALLY to His will. He GAVE you this baby, KNOWING YOUR CIRCUMSTANCES. Make sure you get good nutrition, and I think I talked to you about supplements that help with depression. Take one day at a time, one hour at a time. You will want to take back your total surrender. Tell God you can't surrender totally by yourself. He needs to help you. He WILL. I guarantee it. You will either walk with God and accept His will or you won't. It's up to you.

Don't give up. Remember, the Bible tells us about God, MY STRENGTH IS MADE PERFECT IN WEAKNESS. God delights in taking the weak things of the world, and right now you are among them, to show HIS glory THROUGH you.

Repudiate the devil. He will flee from you. This is nothing more than the devil harassing and obsessing you. I pray in the name of Jesus that the devil will leave you. Amen.

You will be in our prayers.

DON'T GIVE UP!

We love all of you, including your unborn child.

Hugs,
Pat
[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Changed My Mind


Author:
Tracy (Curious)
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 03/27/09 8:57am

Pat - I sincerely thank you for your honesty and your sharing of your own situation. Things have gone from bad to worse here - my husband feels as though I am thwarting his plans of building his $4 million AUD McMansion and he is acting wounded.
But please tell me this. And I am being genuine. I am truly wanting to know HOW you have your conviction of the TRUTH of the bible and of Jesus, etc. How do you know - what gives you such faith and belief? I would LOVE to believe as you do.
Tracy
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Changed My Mind


Author:
Pat
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 03/27/09 11:55am

Tracy,

Faith is actually a gift of the Holy Spirit. Without the Holy Spirit, a person can believe a lot of the right things, but still not have that conviction you're talking about. That said, I will explain a few things.

God chose us before He formed the universe. A lot of churches teach that you have to make a decision. The truth is, we CAN'T make the decision until God calls us through the Holy Spirit. Our free will has been corrupted by sin, and all we can do is choose evil and death.

People who tell you to pray the sinner's prayer are also saying you have to make a decision, not even knowing if you have been called.

However, if you have that desire to believe, you already HAVE the Holy Spirit. When people ask you when you were saved, what they really want to know is when you became aware that the Holy Spirit has called you. If someone asks me when I was saved, I tell them, when Jesus died on the cross!

Another thing to be aware of is that faith is not a feeling. It is a state of being. When I was clinging to the cliff with my fingernails, I didn't want to trust in God. But I knew that God was my only answer and my only hope, so doggedly, I maintained my faith that somehow things would work out. And literally, that's what it was. I was too stubborn to give up on God. I sure didn't FEEL like believing.

I have a close friend. When I met her, she weighed 500 pounds and took up a whole double bed, and she could scarcely get out of bed. She has three children. To make a long story short, the oldest one got into drugs and killed a security guard. He was sentenced to a very long term in prison. Years later, he became a Christian. Her daughter had a baby out of wedlock. Her younger son had been placed for adoption as an older child because she couldn't manage him. He would play hooky and break into people's homes and set fires. When she found him as an adult, he had been convicted of crimes several times and was in and out of prison. During the years I have known this woman, she had a bout of bone cancer (now in remission), psychosomatic blindness, and many other afflictions. Her life was grim. But one of the foster moms of her children was a Christian. I never really discussed the Christian faith with her during that time. I tend to follow the words (I don't remember who said them), Preach the gospel. Use words if necessary. Our conversation should be our behavior. Just as your conversation to your husband should be your behavior. The Bible tells us that this silent conversation is what wins the spouse. Anyway, my friend became a Christian, but she didn't have the joy of this other woman, so one day we were talking, and she said, I always knew there was something different about you, but I didn't know what. (Of course, I was too slow to use words if necessary). And she said, I don't have the joy anymore, so what's wrong with my faith? And I told her, it's not the joy; it's not an emotion. Faith is being in Christ, a state of being. When you don't feel joy, that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with your faith. And incidentally, Tracy, faith is also not about prosperity and health. God being sovereign, decides what gifts of life to give us, and He has his reasons, whether He gives these things, or like He did with Paul, He gives us the grace to endure other things.

Now all of that said, there is also ABUNDANT empirical evidence that the Bible is true, and accurate in every respect. The Christian faith is the ONLY complete faith that is completely backed by the evidence! From the scientific evidence regarding the origin of the world and life, from the accuracy of the prophecies, and many other aspects, the Bible is completely reliable. Here I am talking about the original writings, called the "autographs". We don't have those. What we do have is thousands and thousands of manuscripts we can compare with each other.

When we do this, we can, through careful scholarship, reconstruct the exact wording of the autographs. And that is what we have done. In questions of the fine points of doctrine, going back to these versions (the Textus Receptus and a few refinements made since that was prepared) can tell us what the true position of the Bible is. That is why I am a Lutheran, incidentally. On top of that, the critical truths are repeated so many times that there is no mistake. Salvation is by grace ALONE through faith ALONE. We are not saved by good works, we are saved FOR good works. Good works are the FRUIT of being grounded in Jesus, Who is the vine. They are EVIDENCE of faith, nothing more. But if the evidence is not there, chances are, the faith isn't, either.

My husband rejected the theory of evolution shortly after we were married. He did so on the basis of evidence and logic. The theory of evolution is devastating to faith, and devastating to human rights. My husband's rejection was partly based on his experiences working in the geochronology lab at the university (where they did radiometric dating). It was based partly on things I said, and books that we had. But even though all these years, he didn't believe in evolution, he still lacked the certainty you seek. But the first step is to get rid of the baggage: all the favorite theories people believe to avoid confronting God.

The discipline of studying the evidence for the Christian faith, and the evidence against cults, is called apologetics. There are two main areas of apologetics. One does deal with origins. My time being extremely short this weekend, I will simply point you to some things you can search by Google and readily get the links. The other deals with doctrine and cults. The Institute for Creation Research (which I think is http://www.icr.org) and Answers in Genesis are both excellent sources. If you're not quite ready to go there, the Discovery Institute talks about intelligent design. The Apologetics Index is good on doctrine and cults. There are also historical writings, and some of the excellent Lutheran ones are online. Luther wrote two catechisms which are grounded in Bible. There is also the Book of Concord. This is pretty deep study. But a summary of the essential doctrines of the faith is found in the Apostles Creed and the Nicene Creed. These two don't address origins, because it wasn't an issue at the time, but they address just about everything else. Some churches don't specifically confess these creeds, but they do have a statement of faith which says much the same thing. We speak of the cardinal doctrines, on which we all agree. Among them are the Trinity, Jesus as both God and man, and salvation through Jesus' death on the cross. If a church doesn't confess these, it's not Christian, no matter how much it claims otherwise.

Ultimately, if you ask God for faith, He is gracious to give it. If you want that kind of certainty, ASK. It's not that you won't have doubts. Jesus rewarded the person with doubts (Lord, I believe, help thou mine unbelief) by telling him he had the essential faith. Doubts which are dealt with actually make you stronger. I think that's where you are right now. So whenever things seem hopeless, or when you have doubts, go to God in prayer. Pray from the bottom of your heart. He WILL answer you. He will do so in His own timing and His own way, but He will answer.

I pray that you will soon experience the assurance you seek.

Hugs,
Pat



Forum timezone: GMT-8
VF Version: 3.00b, ConfDB:
Before posting please read our privacy policy.
VoyForums(tm) is a Free Service from Voyager Info-Systems.
Copyright © 1998-2019 Voyager Info-Systems. All Rights Reserved.