| Subject: Re: Material Possessions |
Author:
QUITTNER
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Date Posted: Tue, Oct 01 2002, 11:18:34
In reply to:
Robert Wilson
's message, "Re: Material Possessions" on Tue, Sep 24 2002, 21:15:26
Robert, in your post addressed to Jeff you included: >>> ... I also see no reason to believe that every time Jesus says "the poor" we are to believe he speaks of himself and the disciples. That would be somewhat bizarre, and I'd need a scripture to show me the relationship between the terms "disciples" and "the poor." Nowhere does the Bible say (and Jesus certainly doesn't say), "Hey, guys, by the way, when I say 'the poor,' I mean my disciples here." I would lean toward the dictionary definition of a term, unless we find some explanatory passage or phrase in the Bible that clearly SAYS, "the Poor = the Disciples." <<<
..... There are books on this subject. For example, see the (1974) book by Martin Hengel "Property and Riches in the Early Church. Aspects of a Social History of Early Christianity." For examples: Page 19: "...the Essene community of salvation understands itself to be the 'poor'. ... The early church in Palestine later uses the term 'poor' ('ebyonim) to describe itself in a very similar sense.
". And on page 34 it says " The Jewish Christians in Palestine and Syria .... later called themselves 'Ebionites', in other wards 'the poor'." These are the people who were members of the Kingdom of God with its strict requirements of obedience to God and perpetual poverty, similarly as is still being practised and required of the members of religious orders and of other societies. For examples see the Web.
You also wrote: >>> ... if the disciples didn't have any money, why does it say Judas held the money bag .... You can't have a money bag without some money... <<<
..... Individual members of the kingdom had no money, but the church (= the Kingdom of God) as a whole needed a lot of money to trade with the world (the nonmembers, the outsiders) and Judas was the treasurer. He himself, just as Jesus and all of the other members of the kingdom, was poor too. It wasn't at all easy to operate the kingdom and lots of money had to be collected from outsiders as charity, with all membsrs getting FREE food, FREE shelter and FREE clothing in exchange for unpaid work. But they were not self-sufficient, and that money was needed to supply the reasonable needs of the members. All prospective members of the kingdom, before admission as members, had to give all of their property to the administration of the kingdom (the church). See Acts 2:44-47 and Acts 4:32-37. In the 21st century churches still collect a lot of money, but their members are still in the world, and are NOT given these FREE items in a communal setting.
..... You also wrote about Joseph. He wasn't a member of the kingdom of God, so there was no need for him to give all of his property to the administration. Jesus complied with the rules too and, just like all the other members of the kingdom, was also poor. See also Matt.5:3, Luke 6:20 and 14:33 for examples.
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