Re: Pan's Labyrinth -- The Movie Board

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Subject: Re: Pan's Labyrinth

Author:
Kylopod

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Date Posted: 01:26:10 10/11/07 Thu
Author Host/IP: pool-71-255-204-6.bltmmd.east.verizon.net/71.255.204.6
In reply to: Mr. Bungle 's message, "Re: Pan's Labyrinth" on 17:09:37 10/10/07 Wed

>>I thought you meant he actually tried using
>>supernatural methods against his enemies, like
>>chanting curses or something. Merely having religious
>>or occult beliefs is a different matter.
>>
>
> Not really. Yeah, he probably wasn't making VooJew
>dolls or trying to raise Cthulhu, but if you actually
>believe your heart felt prayers for genocide will get
>it done, than what's the difference?

Did he make heartfelt prayers for genocide?

>>It's hardly self-evident that organized religion is
>>the root cause, as opposed to an excuse.
>>
> I'm not sure about that either. Has there been a
>study?

What sort of study would resolve a question like that? We all know that a lot of murder has been committed in the name of God, Christ, and Muhammad. But we can only speculate about whether the same killers could have found other justifications for their actions if they'd lived in less religious societies. It's certainly plausible that they could have, considering what we've seen happen in the twentieth century.

There just seems to be something underlyingly destructive about mankind itself, and even the most idealistic systems have a way of getting twisted into justifications for murder. I doubt that Jesus would have approved of the Inquisition, but I equally doubt that Darwin, Marx, and Nietzsche would have approved of the crimes committed in their name.

>Still, China is a prime example of Communist success,
>so much so they own us.

I'm not sure I'd call China a true example of Communism, but I think we've gotten far enough afield in this discussion, so I'll stop right here.

>>You might retort that the Hitler had allegedly "noble"
>>arguments too, such as rebuilding Germany, but there
>>was an overtly racist element from the beginning. You
>>can't say that about the Iraq war.
>
>No I can. They are brown people. What makes a
>civilians life more expendable in a war zone? Being
>brown.

I said "overtly." It's easy to forget how acceptable it was in the 1930s to argue openly that some races are better than others. Nowadays, people who think along those lines are much more subtle. At least the ones who hope to have any power in the world.

(Besides, since when were Iraqis brown?)

> And if Hitler's cause (there you go again) was noble
>in trying to rebuild Deutschland, the populace should
>have gotten a clue when the place turned into a one
>party state (Rove's dream). Granted the media then
>wasn't what it is now, but The Night of the Long
>Knives should have started enough talk to give the
>people the idea something very ignoble was going on.
>The parallels are creepy. One party, religious and
>political fealty, and a yen to take over some shit.
>How does that NOT describe the Bush Administration?

When Bush moves to suspend the next election and declare himself President for Life, I'll heed your words. Until then, I think the comparison is just a tad over the top.

>>As far as consequences go, no. But if we're talking
>>about defining evil, motives and intentions are
>>relevant.
>
> Exactly. But the evil seems more cut and dried when
>you can hold it up against Hitler, since he
>personifies it. But it still doesn't matter to the
>dead. I was arguing there was a supernatural element
>to evil based on religion and that there was a
>personification for evil in the form of Satan if
>you're Christian or Jew.

But you don't need religion to recognize the existence of evil.

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