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Date Posted: 02:44:47 06/02/03 Mon
Author: Talen P.
Subject: An idea about what the truth really is.
In reply to: Cory 's message, "not really a truth, just an idea." on 08:11:38 06/01/03 Sun

>Cory wrote:
>The allegory thing about Tolkein detesting them?
>Thanks, i watched the DVD as well. Look deeper into
>his works, he's the one that said the Hobbits were
>representations of Enlishmen, and that Isegaard was an
>allegory for the British destroying their countryside.

Talen writes:
I was refering to the many statements which he made refering to interpretations of his book. He said at several points that I can recall reading about that his books did not represent anything specifically. He prefered to think of them as a history from which lessons could be drawn (just like real history). I'm not just pulling this out of the air BTW I have actually read about Tokien's background (I have 2 biographies in my room: 1 read and 1 skimmed). But then that is completely beside the point anyways.

>Speaking of rejecting or accepting jesus, how does
>that relate to the movie? What's your excuse for
>preaching on here?

The first post was in responce to the post by Trickster that started this thread. It was not ment to directly relate to the movie, however, it realtes to the movie indirectly because the choice given to us by Jesus is similar to the one presented in the Matrix.

>Those that "rejected" Neo could still be saved by him,
>he didn't damn them, did he? And didn't the Architect
>basically inform Neo that he was another form of
>control, even though he wasn't "a part of the matrix?"

First of all Jesus didn't damn anyone. He specifically stated that he did not come to damn the world, but to give it a chance to be forgiven for the sins it committed. A way out as it were.
No one had to chose to accept or reject Neo. That was not the point. The point was you had to accept that the world you are living in is false. Even Neo had to make that choice, so the comparison doesn't work. Neo is not really a messiah in the way Jesus was. He is rather similar to the Quisatz Haderach(sp) in the Dune books. A human instrument or pawn of others who chose to reject his master.

>I think that the Matrix applies to real life very much
>on the whole choiuce subject. The Matrix gave the
>"illusion of choice," very much like real life. Is
>choosing between mcdeadcow or murder king really a
>choice? or christianity or judaism? Aren't they, in
>the end, all the same thing?

I don't think so. They are not all the same. And the choice Jesus presents to us is not "Christianity or Judiasm". It is: "Follow me or don't"

>If you look at religion through the years, (and not
>just christianity) you will see that it very much is a
>system of control. What is the bible? a set of rules,
>what to do and what will happen if you do not obey.

I dissagree. Christianity like the other major religions have been USED to controle people (i.e. the Catholic church during Roman times or the Anglican and Catholic churchs in Ireland). That is not how christianity is supposed to be. People can always pervert a religion for their own purposes. As for me I go by The Book (the Bible) and take a very literal interpretation of it 95% of the time.
The Bible is not a simple set of rules. Their *is* a set of rules there in the old testament (the part that the Jews use) but even then it wasn't just about following the law. It was about growing closer to God. The New testament follows along that thread by showing us a way of life designed to help us mature and grow closer to God.
It is important to note that they were designed for our own good and no one is forcing us to follow them. There is also no real punishment here on Earth for not following them. Aside, of course, from the side effects of a life of sin (blackened lungs, a clogged liver, and STDs to name a few).

At this point I must bring up Hell. This is a concept that is taught throughout the Bible. Hell in its most basic definition is total seperation from God. It is described as a torturous experiance, but God is not going to let those who rejected Him stay with Him.
It is not a pleasent thought, but it is your choice to believe it or not.

>The angents almost act missionary-like to Neo,
>offering him redemption to track down another
>blasphemer, if you will.

Except their intention was malicious and self centered. Missionaries are simply preaching a truth that they believe. There is no threat from them, nor any promise of reward if they accept.

>And i apologize, i misrepresented myself. I didn't
>mean life was only for enjoyment. I am sorry for that,
>i'm a strong environmentalist, vegetarian, car-hating
>tree-hugger. So i do agree that our lives are more
>than ourselves. Marriage alone is proof of that, i'd
>do anything for my wife. At the same time, i don't
>have to follow some old book's rules on how to live my
>life. They're outdated and tired, and there are new
>things in life that teach great lessons, from Tolkein,
>Vonnegut, Kearouac, and Palhiniuck to the Wachowskis
>and beyond.

I do believe that the teachings of the Bible are just as applicable today as they were when it was written. There are A few points that have gotton difficult to understand because our language changes so much. But for the most part I am constantly suprised at how such an old book from such an alien culture (alien from the USA anyway) can apply so readily to our lives today.
There is always new material to gather wisdom from. The Bible, I think, covered it, but not everyone reads the Bible. Does that make them stupid and unwise? Not necessarily. There are so many other places to find wisdom in this world. (And so many places to find foolishness too)

In the end our beliefs are unreconcilable.
I believe in one God who is Omnicient, infinite, and all powerfull and who is just and loving.
I believe that we as humans have not lived up to the standards set by God and have therefore seperated ourselves from Him.
I believe that God has sent his Son who is fully God but has limited Himself to human form to sacrifice Himself so that we wouldn't be seperated from God completely if we simply chose to follow Him.
I believe that the Bible is God's word which He delivered through men so that we could make use of the sacrifice that Jesus made.
I believe that you (and many others) do not believe any of the first 4 of my beliefs and that there is no way for me to argue you into believing them. It's your choice, not mine, and not even God's.
I believe that because of beliefe #5 we have reached an impasse. I'll agree to disagree.
I believe that I really want to see the next Matrix movie RIGHT NOW! *cough* how'd that get in there?
I believe that this list is getting really silly so I'm going to stop.

All I ask of you is to keep an open mind. I think we all should. (hey that ties in to the Matrix too ;)
________
Talen P.

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