| Subject: Re: SxK Plausibility |
Author:
Aeanagwen
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Date Posted: 06:36:47 07/05/03 Sat
In reply to:
Agent420
's message, "Re: SxK Plausibility" on 10:45:39 06/30/03 Mon
<< I was merely expressing my opinion as a woman who cherishes sex as a very important part of her life. Don't put words in my mouth, they taste rather foul.<<
I wasn't attempting to put words in your mouth, just asking to please recognize that not everyone shares your admittedly more open views of sex. I don't mind it said in a casual way, certainly, but used as a point in a debate, it's more up for challenging.
<< In addition, CLAMP is not the type to shove things down readers' throats. We *didn't* get to see Sorata and Arashi have sex--actually, we barely even saw them kiss.<<
Well, I didn't mean 'see them have sex' so much as I meant 'see that they DID have sex.' The readers were shown in no uncertain terms that sex did happen.
<< We have never seen yaoi couples even KISS in their manga.<<
No, but there are ways other than the blatantly obvious to show sexual intimacy. We don't see Taishakuten and Ashura-oh kiss, but we see them in bed together. A lot of people consider Kokuyou and Hisui to be 'yaoi'--as evinced by all the griping in another thread on the board about Hisui being made female in Tokyopop's translation, even though the angels are all genderless and so referring to them as male is no more or less accurate than calling them female--and THAT relationship is obviously sexual. As far as intimacy without sex goes, CLAMP certainly isn't shy about showing groping or molesting--Dark Hinoto/Chii to Hinoto/Chii, or what Fuuma's so fond of doing to Kamui and, to a lesser degree, Kakyou. CLAMP can be subtle; we don't have to see something worthy of a raunchy doujinshi to hazard whether or not a couple has had sex. They could be shown in a situation that would obviously lead up to sex, cutting away to something else, and then coming back later, perhaps showing one person in bed, the other gone. We don't have to see the act itself to know it happened. The fact that we've seen absolutely nothing that even HINTS at it would seem to indicate that sex hasn't happened.
I'm not saying that it DEFINITELY HAS NOT GONE ON. I'm not saying that SxS smut can't be written within the bounds of canon. I'm certainly not saying that all SxS smutfic is by definition AU. I'm just saying that, from what the canon's shown us, I myself think it's more likely that Subaru has NOT had sex with Seishirou than it is that he has.
<< Well, shit, somebody's touchy today. <<
Kotori bashing (bashing of anyone, really, but mostly the characters who're often subjected to it, which Kotori certainly is) makes me twitchy. You didn't intend to bash her, okay; I'm sorry I assumed otherwise. I think it's understandable that I took it as bashing, though, given how common the practice is among fans. I'm sorry if my phrasing was a bit huffy, but, yes, I was annoyed. It LOOKED like a basher line. Debates or discussions should, in my opinion, be a little bit more clarified in phrasing, lest understandings like this one come up.
<< I simply CANNOT see a relationship reach such a high level of intimacy without sexual contact.<<
...I may be unclear here, but given your arguments elsewhere, I read this to mean that your opinion is that any relationship with a certain level of intimacy is or will be sexual. Feel free to correct me if that's an imcorrect assumption. If that's right, though, I feel I must debate the point. Intimacy need not conclusively mean that sex is going on. Sorata's pretty open about ruffling Kamui's hair or throwing an arm around his shoulders; I don't think there's sex going on there. I'm sure Hokuto and Subaru were close, but I highly doubt that twincest was canon. Nataku and Fuuma? Fuuma and Kakyou? Satsuki and Yuuto? Seiichirou and Karen? Without some more indicators, it's all subjective.
<< And the thought of Kotori and Kamui having sex would bother me terribly, simply because Kamui would be forced into a controlling relationship and Kotori does NOT have the stamina or the maturity to endure it.<<
I'll echo Lika here; 'controlling'? How do you figure? As far as stamina goes, okay; she has a weak heart. All that means is that sex can't be rough and wild; it would have to be more gentle. Given what Kamui's been through with Fuuma, I can't see him wanting anything really kinky, anyway. As for her maturity, again I'll agree with Lika; Kotori is a lot more mature than a good chunk of the cast. Why does everyone associate optimism and good will with immaturity? Kotori and Fuuma managed fine on their own after Kyougo died, and Kotori didn't really snap until after she saw Tokiko's death. Maybe that means she's not as strong emotionally as Fuuma, but given that it took witnessing TWO bloody sword-birthings to drive her a bit around the bend, she still measures up better than Subaru, who went further and deeper within by a betrayal. She accepts her martyrship calmly and without anger or bitterness. She's too young to be having sex? Maybe, but no one says sex has to happen right away. And if it can be argued that Kotori isn't psychologically ready to have sex, I'll certainly argue that Kamui isn't either. Nor is Subaru, for that matter. A lot of the cast isn't. But given a few years to mature and get a better-adjusted grip on things, I hardly see how KamuixKotori would have been hugely unhealthy for either of them.
<< Kamui WOULD NOT be able to handle a relationship that
>would put him on the spot as a dominant male. <<
He seems to be learning how to handle leadership of the DoH pretty well. Kamui's been a loner for a long time, and the trauma of Kotori's death and Fuuma's betrayal has scarred him for a while. He's coping with it, though. He's still young, but he's growing his backbone again; look at the way he handles Arashi after Sorata nearly dies. Give him a bit more credit; there's more to him than a weepy uke. I'm not saying Kotori is his One True Love, just that relationships are rarely as simple as one person always being supportive and the other being supported. A relationship does tend to imply a mutual exchange, after all.
<< Sure, one could always say that Kotori could do those things, but she simply does not have the level of understanding one needs to understand the torture Kamui faces as a depressed adolescent. <<
She seems to understand Kakyou's pain well enough. As I recall, she says she can feel his pain within her? That's a pretty high level of empathy, to be saying that she's incapable of understanding Kamui's angst. Anyway, Subaru may understand it, but given what he's done with HIS life, I hardly thing he's the most inspiring role-model Kamui could look to for sympathy.
<< GAH! These words being shoved in my mouth--I am choking on them! *gulps a glass of water* Phew... ANYWAY... <<
I'm sorry; in what way was me expressing my personal thoughts and opinions on the Subaru/Kamui dynamic and why I don't see it as sexual shoving words in YOUR mouth?
<< As timid and insecure as he may be, SUBARU IS STILL A MAN. I did *not* call him a testosterone-baked pervert, but for someone who believes so fervently that he is a virgin you have to at least acknowledge the fact that he may be sexually frustrated. <<
*shrugs* Maybe he's aesexual. It's possible to love someone without wanting sexual contact, after all. He MAY be sexually frustrated, but, if my memory serves me correctly, he doesn't show any signs of being aroused by Kamui OR Seishirou. So even if he is, he has it very well in check.
<< But when displayed in the manner of touching and stroking and getting *very* close to Kamui, it can be safe to say that Subaru is at least experimenting with sexually provocative contact. <<
Or maybe he's used to that protective behavior from Hokuto, and doesn't know any other way to express it, nor might it really occur to him that the way twins treat each other is a bit more sexually-charged when applied to other people.
Note: I'm NOT saying that you're wrong, just that there are other potential ways to explain Subaru's apparent comfort around Kamui than sexual attraction.
If I misinterpreted anything, please feel free to correct me. Certainly I'm not an expert on Subaru and TB, but I try to limit myself in debates about him to things that I do know or can reasonably assume.
Aeanagwen
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