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No To Noahides
Welcome, if you have been brought to this site after a web search then I presume you are already somewhat aware of the Noahide Movement. This forum is dedicated to exposing the Noahide movement for the antichrist system that it is. My hope is that as people people become aware of this heresy and realize just what it represents, that they will become active witnesses against the Noahide movement and for the cause of Christ.
ISRAEL BEHIND IRAQ ATTACK -- BRI, 20:10:33 09/19/02 Thu

Proof Israel/Richard Perle
Dictating War On Iraq?
From Dick Fojut
dfgraphics@gci-net.com
9-11-2

Jeff...

BEFORE carpet bombing begins and tens of thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians become "collateral damage" dead, we should first consider the following:
----------------------
IS THERE PROOF America's proposed WAR AGAINST IRAQ is being dictated by the ISRAELI government in collusion with Defense Policy Board head Richard Perle and his band of ISRAEL-FIRST advisors surrounding President Bush?
---------------------
YES, according to Lyndon LaRouche who says he has PROOF and presents it in a PRESS RELEASE (see bottom),
http://www.larouchepub.com/pr_lar/2002/090802pollard_affr.html
contending that Richard Perle and an Israeli Spy Ring network of "Pollard stay-behinds" inside the Bush Administration are behind the "urgent" drive to induce Bush and Congress to go to war against Iraq!
---------------------
According to LaRouche, the collusion was originally planned back in 1996, with Richard Perle proposing to then Prime Minister Netanyahu a NEW ISRAELI POLICY: * repudiating the Oslo Accords, * a PERMANENT Israeli occupation of the entire West Bank and Gaza, * elimination of Saddam Hussein, * to be followed by overthrowing or destabilizing the governments of Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, and Iran. The document, "A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm," (FOR Israel) was prepared for the Jerusalem and Washington, D.C.-based Institute for Advanced Strategic and Political Studies (IASPS), one so-called "independent" organization now being quoted in the media giving "reasons" to attack Iraq. Perle and his "Israel-First" crowd are OBSESSED with pressuring Bush and Congress to adopt and carry out their Israel-Likud "Clean Break" policy.
----------------------
(Excerprt from LaRouche Press Release): "Perle most recently staged the July 10, 2002 Defense Policy Board session, which demanded the purging of the Joint Chiefs of Staff of all opponents of the Iraq war, and called for a U.S. military occupation and takeover of the Saudi oil fields and a total break with the House of Saud-just as his July 1996 IASPS "Clean Break" study had proposed."
-----------------------
(Read the LaRouche EIR Press Release at bottom and judge for yourself if there is sufficient proof for Congress to hold IMMEDIATE PUBLIC HEARINGS to investigate LaRouche's serious charges about CRIMINAL BEHAVIOUR inside Bush's administration.)
http://www.larouchepub.com/pr_lar/2002/090802pollard_affr.html
-------------------------
(ADDITIONAL): In the UK Independent 10 Sept 2002,
ROBERT FISK makes similar accusations about ISRAELI LOBBYISTS, now dictating policy inside the Bush administration, in the following scathing article... BUSH IS INTENT ON PAINTING ALLIES AND ENEMIES IN THE MIDDLE EAST AS EVIL
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=332011

(Excerpts): Only The Nation among all of America's newspapers and magazines has dared to point out that a large number of former Israeli lobbyists are now working within the American administration and the Bush plans for the Middle East - which could cause a massive political upheaval in the Arab world - fit perfectly into Israel's own dreams for the region.
The magazine listed Vice-President Dick Cheney - the arch-hawk in the US administration - and John Bolton, now under-secretary of state for Arms Control, with Douglas Feith, the third most senior executive at the Pentagon, as members of the advisory board of the pro-Israeli Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs (Jinsa) before joining the Bush government. Richard Perle, chairman of the Pentagon's Defence Policy Board, is still an adviser on the institute, as is the former CIA director James Woolsey. ...Mr Perle advises the Defence Secretary, Donald Rumsfeld...
President Bush, of course, will not be talking about the influence of these pro-Israeli lobbyists when he presents his vision of the Middle East at the United Nations on Thursday.
-----------------------------
Note: The above JINSA organization was identified by LaRouche as a lobby for the Israeli Army, the IDF (Israeli Defense Forces.) and Ariel Sharon. The above (biased) officials, strongly dedicated to promoting Israel (and its army), should not be tolerated inside our government!
-----------------------------
Posted by Dick Fojut
Dick Fojut Graphics dfgraphics@gci-net.com
Tucson, AZ
----------------------------------
----------------------------------
PRESS RELEASE
from the website of Lyndon LaRouche's
EXECUTIVE INTELLIGENCE REVIEW
(Released by the LaRouche in 2004 committee on Sept. 8)
------------------
THE POLLARD AFFAIR NEVER ENDED!
http://www.larouchepub.com/pr_lar/2002/090802pollard_affr.html

Lyndon LaRouche reports that there is now firm evidence that the ongoing drive to induce President George W. Bush to launch a war against Iraq, is a 1996 Israeli government policy that is being foisted on the President by a nest of Israeli agents inside the U.S. government. This Israeli spy network inside the United States was unable achieve their objective until President Bush was entrapped by the events of Sept. 11, 2001 and the falsified accounts of those events provided by this foreign intelligence apparatus, and lured over to their policies. Lyndon LaRouche demands to know: Is this not the motive that explains the who and why of the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001? LaRouche demands an immediate Congressional investigation, to help purge the U.S. government of this foreign intelligence apparatus, which attempted, with the 9/11 events, to seize control over U.S. foreign policy. The network of Pollard "stay-behinds" inside the Bush Administration is engaged in a witting hoax, to induce the President and the U.S. Congress to go to war.

When you read the summary evidence below, you will certainly share Lyndon LaRouche's conclusion that all of these people must be immediately fired from their Administration posts, and that the U.S. Congress must launch public hearings to get to the bottom of this criminal scheme.

The summary facts are as follows:

On July 8, 1996, Richard Perle, now the Chairman of the Defense Policy Board, an advisory group that reports to Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, presented a written document to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, spelling out a new Israeli foreign policy, calling for a repudiation of the Oslo Accords and the underlying concept of "land for peace"; for the permanent annexation of the entire West Bank and Gaza Strip; and for the elimination of the Saddam Hussein regime in Baghdad, as a first step towards overthrowing or destabilizing the governments of Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, and Iran. The document was prepared for the Jerusalem and Washington, D.C.-based Institute for Advanced Strategic and Political Studies (IASPS), a think tank financed by Richard Mellon-Scaife. The report, "A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm," was co-authored by Perle; Douglas Feith, currently the Assistant Secretary of Defense for Policy; David Wurmser, currently special assistant to State Department chief arms control negotiator John Bolton; and Meyrav Wurmser, now director of Mideast Policy at the Hudson Institute.

Two days after he received the foreign policy blueprint from Perle, Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu delivered a speech before a joint session of the U.S. Congress, which strongly echoed the IASPS outline. The same day, the Wall Street Journal published excerpts from the IASPS document, and the next day, July 11, 1996, the Journal editorially endorsed the Perle document.

Beginning in February 1998, the British government of Prime Minister Tony Blair launched a concerted effort, in league with the Netanyahu government in Israel, and the Perle Israeli agent-of-influence networks inside the United States, to induce President William Clinton to launch a war against Iraq, under precisely the terms spelled out for Netanyahu in the "Clean Break" paper. The war was to be launched, ostensibly, over Iraq's possession of "weapons of mass destruction." United Nations weapons inspectors were, at this time, still on the ground inside Iraq.

To buttress the war drive, British Foreign Secretary Robin Cook issued an official lying "white paper" on the Iraqi drive to obtain WMD. On Feb. 19, 1998, Richard Perle and former Congressman Stephen Solarz released an "Open Letter to the President," demanding a full-scale U.S.-led drive for "regime change" in Baghdad. The dangerously incompetent military scheme for the overthrow of Saddam that was published in the Open Letter, has been recently revived by the Perle-led network of "chickenhawks" in the office of Secretary of Defense-but has been summarily rejected by the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Among the signators on the original Perle-Solarz letter were the following current Bush Administration officials: Elliott Abrams (National Security Council), Richard Armitage (State Department), John Bolton (State Department), Doug Feith (Defense Department), Fred Ikle (Defense Policy Board), Zalmay Khalilzad (White House), Peter Rodman (Defense Department), Donald Rumsfeld (Secretary of Defense), Paul Wolfowitz (Defense Department), David Wurmser (State Department), and Dov Zakheim (Defense Department).

President Clinton rejected the February 1998 demand for war, sending both Netanyahu and Blair into fits of rage.

On Aug. 6, 1998, Angelo Codevilla, the Washington, D.C. co-director of IASPS (along with David Wurmser), penned an op-ed in the Wall Street Journal, demanding the freeing of convicted Israeli spy Jonathan Pollard. Codevilla argued that Pollard had been right to pass U.S. classified material to Israel, because of the threat posed by Saddam Hussein. Days later, two members of the Netanyahu cabinet contacted Vice President Al Gore, demanding Pollard's release.

After again rejecting the Netanyahu and Blair demands for war on Iraq in November 1998, President Clinton-under the impeachment onslaught, led by the Mellon-Scaife-funded apparatus-finally caved in and authorized Operation Desert Fox in December 1998, as he was returning on Air Force One from a visit to Israel. But the 70 days of bombardment did not eliminate the Saddam Hussein regime, and the issue remained dormant for the next three years ... until Sept. 11, 2001.

Within moments of the 9/11 attack on Washington and New York, the same Pollard-linked American networks who had designed the Netanyahu foreign policy were on the warpath, demanding that President Bush go to war against Iraq, despite the fact that, to this day, there is no plausible evidence linking Iraq to the September 2001 irregular warfare attacks. The Sharon government in Israel instantly declared that the attack had been ordered by Saddam Hussein, and called for massive retaliation against Baghdad.

On Sept. 22, 2001, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz made a feverish pitch for war on Iraq at a Camp David meeting with President Bush and most of the Cabinet. Wolfowitz had been brought into the inner circle of George W. Bush a year before the 2000 Presidential elections, at the initiative of former Secretary of State George Shultz. By 1999, Wolfowitz and Condi Rice had become co-responsible for pulling together the Bush campaign foreign policy and national security team, which Ms. Rice dubbed "The Vulcans." Wolfowitz immediately brought "X Committee" Israeli agent-of-influence Richard Perle into the inner sanctum, from where he has been peddling the Netanyahu-Israeli foreign policy agenda from day one. Perle most recently staged the July 10, 2002 Defense Policy Board session, which demanded the purging of the Joint Chiefs of Staff of all opponents of the Iraq war, and called for a U.S. military occupation and takeover of the Saudi oil fields and a total break with the House of Saud-just as his July 1996 IASPS "Clean Break" study had proposed.

This is but the briefest of summaries of the massive evidence in hand. The current campaign to induce President Bush and the U.S. Congress into a war with Iraq, one that would surely unleash the "Clash of Civilizations," is a direct continuation of the Pollard affair. President Bush is being pressured-from inside his own national security apparatus-to adopt an Israeli Likud foreign policy! What nation is dictating policy to the United States? This is a scandalous hoax, far worse than the Gulf of Tonkin affair of the late 1960s.

From the point that Perle, Feith, the Wurmsers, et al. first delivered the "Clean Break" policy to Netanyahu, this crowd has been obsessed with inducing the United States government to adopt and implement it. All prior efforts failed, until Sept. 11, 2001 created a new context for reviving and pushing it-under the guise of the "war on terrorism." Does this raise questions about the true, mysterious authors of the 9/11 attack? What are the links between the events of Sept. 11 and the subsequent unabated drive for war against Iraq?

From Perle and Feith, to others pressing the Netanyahu scheme from outside the Administration-including Frank Gaffney, Steven Bryen, and Michael Ledeen-the entire crew were among the leading suspected Israeli spies, tasking Jonathan Pollard to steal the most precious national security secrets of the U.S.A., from inside the Reagan-Bush national security apparatus. They avoided prosecution, and later emerged as "The Vulcans," assigned to "teach" President Bush the ins and outs of foreign and national security policy. Isn't it time that these co-conspirators joined Jonathan Pollard behind bars? Isn't it time for President Bush to give these clowns a "September Surprise"?

Released by the LaRouche in 2004 committee on Sept. 8.



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Replies:

[> Re: ISRAEL BEHIND IRAQ ATTACK -- lindy, 08:15:53 01/15/03 Wed

>Proof Israel/Richard Perle
>Dictating War On Iraq?
>From Dick Fojut
>dfgraphics@gci-net.com
>9-11-2
>
>Jeff...
>
>BEFORE carpet bombing begins and tens of thousands of
>innocent Iraqi civilians become "collateral damage"
>dead, we should first consider the following:
>----------------------
>IS THERE PROOF America's proposed WAR AGAINST IRAQ is
>being dictated by the ISRAELI government in collusion
>with Defense Policy Board head Richard Perle and his
>band of ISRAEL-FIRST advisors surrounding President
>Bush?
>---------------------
>YES, according to Lyndon LaRouche who says he has
>PROOF and presents it in a PRESS RELEASE (see bottom),
>http://www.larouchepub.com/pr_lar/2002/090802pollard_af
>fr.html
>contending that Richard Perle and an Israeli Spy Ring
>network of "Pollard stay-behinds" inside the Bush
>Administration are behind the "urgent" drive to induce
>Bush and Congress to go to war against Iraq!
>---------------------
>According to LaRouche, the collusion was originally
>planned back in 1996, with Richard Perle proposing to
>then Prime Minister Netanyahu a NEW ISRAELI POLICY: *
>repudiating the Oslo Accords, * a PERMANENT Israeli
>occupation of the entire West Bank and Gaza, *
>elimination of Saddam Hussein, * to be followed by
>overthrowing or destabilizing the governments of
>Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, and Iran. The document,
>"A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the
>Realm," (FOR Israel) was prepared for the Jerusalem
>and Washington, D.C.-based Institute for Advanced
>Strategic and Political Studies (IASPS), one so-called
>"independent" organization now being quoted in the
>media giving "reasons" to attack Iraq. Perle and his
>"Israel-First" crowd are OBSESSED with pressuring Bush
>and Congress to adopt and carry out their Israel-Likud
>"Clean Break" policy.
>----------------------
>(Excerprt from LaRouche Press Release): "Perle most
>recently staged the July 10, 2002 Defense Policy Board
>session, which demanded the purging of the Joint
>Chiefs of Staff of all opponents of the Iraq war, and
>called for a U.S. military occupation and takeover of
>the Saudi oil fields and a total break with the House
>of Saud-just as his July 1996 IASPS "Clean Break"
>study had proposed."
>-----------------------
>(Read the LaRouche EIR Press Release at bottom and
>judge for yourself if there is sufficient proof for
>Congress to hold IMMEDIATE PUBLIC HEARINGS to
>investigate LaRouche's serious charges about CRIMINAL
>BEHAVIOUR inside Bush's administration.)
>http://www.larouchepub.com/pr_lar/2002/090802pollard_af
>fr.html
>-------------------------
>(ADDITIONAL): In the UK Independent 10 Sept 2002,
>ROBERT FISK makes similar accusations about ISRAELI
>LOBBYISTS, now dictating policy inside the Bush
>administration, in the following scathing article...
>BUSH IS INTENT ON PAINTING ALLIES AND ENEMIES IN THE
>MIDDLE EAST AS EVIL
>http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.j
>sp?story=332011
>
>(Excerpts): Only The Nation among all of America's
>newspapers and magazines has dared to point out that a
>large number of former Israeli lobbyists are now
>working within the American administration and the
>Bush plans for the Middle East - which could cause a
>massive political upheaval in the Arab world - fit
>perfectly into Israel's own dreams for the region.
>The magazine listed Vice-President Dick Cheney - the
>arch-hawk in the US administration - and John Bolton,
>now under-secretary of state for Arms Control, with
>Douglas Feith, the third most senior executive at the
>Pentagon, as members of the advisory board of the
>pro-Israeli Jewish Institute for National Security
>Affairs (Jinsa) before joining the Bush government.
>Richard Perle, chairman of the Pentagon's Defence
>Policy Board, is still an adviser on the institute, as
>is the former CIA director James Woolsey. ...Mr Perle
>advises the Defence Secretary, Donald Rumsfeld...
>President Bush, of course, will not be talking about
>the influence of these pro-Israeli lobbyists when he
>presents his vision of the Middle East at the United
>Nations on Thursday.
>-----------------------------
>Note: The above JINSA organization was identified by
>LaRouche as a lobby for the Israeli Army, the IDF
>(Israeli Defense Forces.) and Ariel Sharon. The above
>(biased) officials, strongly dedicated to promoting
>Israel (and its army), should not be tolerated inside
>our government!
>evidence that the ongoing drive to induce President
>George W. Bush to launch a war against Iraq, is a 1996
>Israeli government policy that is being foisted on the
>President by a nest of Israeli agents inside the U.S.
>government. This Israeli spy network inside the United
>States was unable achieve their objective until
>President Bush was entrapped by the events of Sept.
>11, 2001 and the falsified accounts of those events
>provided by this foreign intelligence apparatus, and
>lured over to their policies. Lyndon LaRouche demands
>to know: Is this not the motive that explains the who
>and why of the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001? LaRouche
>demands an immediate Congressional investigation, to
>help purge the U.S. government of this foreign
>intelligence apparatus, which attempted, with the 9/11
>events, to seize control over U.S. foreign policy. The
>network of Pollard "stay-behinds" inside the Bush
>Administration is engaged in a witting hoax, to induce
>the President and the U.S. Congress to go to war.
>
>When you read the summary evidence below, you will
>certainly share Lyndon LaRouche's conclusion that all
>of these people must be immediately fired from their
>Administration posts, and that the U.S. Congress must
>launch public hearings to get to the bottom of this
>criminal scheme.
>
>The summary facts are as follows:
>
>On July 8, 1996, Richard Perle, now the Chairman of
>the Defense Policy Board, an advisory group that
>reports to Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz,
>presented a written document to Israeli Prime Minister
>Benjamin Netanyahu, spelling out a new Israeli foreign
>policy, calling for a repudiation of the Oslo Accords
>and the underlying concept of "land for peace"; for
>the permanent annexation of the entire West Bank and
>Gaza Strip; and for the elimination of the Saddam
>Hussein regime in Baghdad, as a first step towards
>overthrowing or destabilizing the governments of
>Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, and Iran. The document
>was prepared for the Jerusalem and Washington,
>D.C.-based Institute for Advanced Strategic and
>Political Studies (IASPS), a think tank financed by
>Richard Mellon-Scaife. The report, "A Clean Break: A
>New Strategy for Securing the Realm," was co-authored
>by Perle; Douglas Feith, currently the Assistant
>Secretary of Defense for Policy; David Wurmser,
>currently special assistant to State Department chief
>arms control negotiator John Bolton; and Meyrav
>Wurmser, now director of Mideast Policy at the Hudson
>Institute.
>
>Two days after he received the foreign policy
>blueprint from Perle, Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu
>delivered a speech before a joint session of the U.S.
>Congress, which strongly echoed the IASPS outline. The
>same day, the Wall Street Journal published excerpts
>from the IASPS document, and the next day, July 11,
>1996, the Journal editorially endorsed the Perle
>document.
>
>Beginning in February 1998, the British government of
>Prime Minister Tony Blair launched a concerted effort,
>in league with the Netanyahu government in Israel, and
>the Perle Israeli agent-of-influence networks inside
>the United States, to induce President William Clinton
>to launch a war against Iraq, under precisely the
>terms spelled out for Netanyahu in the "Clean Break"
>paper. The war was to be launched, ostensibly, over
>Iraq's possession of "weapons of mass destruction."
>United Nations weapons inspectors were, at this time,
>still on the ground inside Iraq.
>
>To buttress the war drive, British Foreign Secretary
>Robin Cook issued an official lying "white paper" on
>the Iraqi drive to obtain WMD. On Feb. 19, 1998,
>Richard Perle and former Congressman Stephen Solarz
>released an "Open Letter to the President," demanding
>a full-scale U.S.-led drive for "regime change" in
>Baghdad. The dangerously incompetent military scheme
>for the overthrow of Saddam that was published in the
>Open Letter, has been recently revived by the
>Perle-led network of "chickenhawks" in the office of
>Secretary of Defense-but has been summarily rejected
>by the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Among the signators on
>the original Perle-Solarz letter were the following
>current Bush Administration officials: Elliott Abrams
>(National Security Council), Richard Armitage (State
>Department), John Bolton (State Department), Doug
>Feith (Defense Department), Fred Ikle (Defense Policy
>Board), Zalmay Khalilzad (White House), Peter Rodman
>(Defense Department), Donald Rumsfeld (Secretary of
>Defense), Paul Wolfowitz (Defense Department), David
>Wurmser (State Department), and Dov Zakheim (Defense
>Department).
>
>President Clinton rejected the February 1998 demand
>for war, sending both Netanyahu and Blair into fits of
>rage.
>
>On Aug. 6, 1998, Angelo Codevilla, the Washington,
>D.C. co-director of IASPS (along with David Wurmser),
>penned an op-ed in the Wall Street Journal, demanding
>the freeing of convicted Israeli spy Jonathan Pollard.
>Codevilla argued that Pollard had been right to pass
>U.S. classified material to Israel, because of the
>threat posed by Saddam Hussein. Days later, two
>members of the Netanyahu cabinet contacted Vice
>President Al Gore, demanding Pollard's release.
>
>After again rejecting the Netanyahu and Blair demands
>for war on Iraq in November 1998, President
>Clinton-under the impeachment onslaught, led by the
>Mellon-Scaife-funded apparatus-finally caved in and
>authorized Operation Desert Fox in December 1998, as
>he was returning on Air Force One from a visit to
>Israel. But the 70 days of bombardment did not
>eliminate the Saddam Hussein regime, and the issue
>remained dormant for the next three years ... until
>Sept. 11, 2001.
>
>Within moments of the 9/11 attack on Washington and
>New York, the same Pollard-linked American networks
>who had designed the Netanyahu foreign policy were on
>the warpath, demanding that President Bush go to war
>against Iraq, despite the fact that, to this day,
>there is no plausible evidence linking Iraq to the
>September 2001 irregular warfare attacks. The Sharon
>government in Israel instantly declared that the
>attack had been ordered by Saddam Hussein, and called
>for massive retaliation against Baghdad.
>
>On Sept. 22, 2001, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul
>Wolfowitz made a feverish pitch for war on Iraq at a
>Camp David meeting with President Bush and most of the
>Cabinet. Wolfowitz had been brought into the inner
>circle of George W. Bush a year before the 2000
>Presidential elections, at the initiative of former
>Secretary of State George Shultz. By 1999, Wolfowitz
>and Condi Rice had become co-responsible for pulling
>together the Bush campaign foreign policy and national
>security team, which Ms. Rice dubbed "The Vulcans."
>Wolfowitz immediately brought "X Committee" Israeli
>agent-of-influence Richard Perle into the inner
>sanctum, from where he has been peddling the
>Netanyahu-Israeli foreign policy agenda from day one.
>Perle most recently staged the July 10, 2002 Defense
>Policy Board session, which demanded the purging of
>the Joint Chiefs of Staff of all opponents of the Iraq
>war, and called for a U.S. military occupation and
>takeover of the Saudi oil fields and a total break
>with the House of Saud-just as his July 1996 IASPS
>"Clean Break" study had proposed.
>
>This is but the briefest of summaries of the massive
>evidence in hand. The current campaign to induce
>President Bush and the U.S. Congress into a war with
>Iraq, one that would surely unleash the "Clash of
>Civilizations," is a direct continuation of the
>Pollard affair. President Bush is being pressured-from
>inside his own national security apparatus-to adopt an
>Israeli Likud foreign policy! What nation is dictating
>policy to the United States? This is a scandalous
>hoax, far worse than the Gulf of Tonkin affair of the
>late 1960s.
>
>From the point that Perle, Feith, the Wurmsers, et al.
>first delivered the "Clean Break" policy to Netanyahu,
>this crowd has been obsessed with inducing the United
>States government to adopt and implement it. All prior
>efforts failed, until Sept. 11, 2001 created a new
>context for reviving and pushing it-under the guise of
>the "war on terrorism." Does this raise questions
>about the true, mysterious authors of the 9/11 attack?
>What are the links between the events of Sept. 11 and
>the subsequent unabated drive for war against Iraq?
>
>From Perle and Feith, to others pressing the Netanyahu
>scheme from outside the Administration-including Frank
>Gaffney, Steven Bryen, and Michael Ledeen-the entire
>crew were among the leading suspected Israeli spies,
>tasking Jonathan Pollard to steal the most precious
>national security secrets of the U.S.A., from inside
>the Reagan-Bush national security apparatus. They
>avoided prosecution, and later emerged as "The
>Vulcans," assigned to "teach" President Bush the ins
>and outs of foreign and national security policy.
>Isn't it time that these co-conspirators joined
>Jonathan Pollard behind bars? Isn't it time for
>President Bush to give these clowns a "September
>Surprise"?

>http://www.rense.com

[Edit]
Noahide Laws -- Leah, 01:06:53 01/31/03 Fri

I was reading about the Noahide Laws, a few weeks ago, on a Hassidic Jewish website called Noah's Covenant (http://www.noahide.com/) and was highly offended by what I read concerning Jesus Christ. I always knew that Jewish people didn't believe that Christ is the Messiah, and I respect people who hold religious beliefs that are different from mine so that's ok by me, but I had no clue that hatred for Christ, and Christians, ran so deep among some Jewish people and when I read that this group plans to FORCE the people of the world to worship God their way... well, that was a REAL wake-up call, to say the least. IMO, there's no greater religious bigotry/racism than that.

I read on that website that Christ was a false prophet, that He learned witchcraft in Egypt and to perform miracles He used procedures that involved cutting his flesh, that He & his disciples practiced sorcery and black magic, that Christ was sexually immoral, that His message has brought a terrible darkness upon the world and that His mother, Mary, was a whore. This "information" is all, supposedly, based on writings from the Babylonian Talmud.

It also says that the Christian God is not the same as the Jewish God, that Christians are spiritually blinded, that the New Testament is "pagan revenge", that Christianity is a false religion of evil powers, that Christians interpret the Bible according to their own ideas and opinions, that the Jewish people (not Christ) are the Son of God, that the Christian doctrine is wicked, that Christians who celebrate Christmas, Easter, Halloween, All Saint's Day, Good Friday, Ash Wednesday, and probably even the "new year" (January 1st) are violating the commandment against idolatry (a "crime" which will be punishable by death by BE-HEADING when/if these people gain control of the world, which is their goal!)

Then... I come to actual quotes from the deceased Rabbi (Rabbi Yosef Yitzchak Schneersohn) most Noahides believe to be the Messiah who will soon be resurrected from the dead. Here are a few of those quotes:

http://www.noahide.com/rebbe.htm

* The main avodah of this generation is to go out to the final war of the golus, to conquer and to purify all the gentile countries (such that "and kingship will be Hashem's," Ovadiah 1:21). --Shabbos Parshas VaYelech, 5746.

* In order that the entire world should be orderly, it is essential that each and every one of the "seventy nations" should be influenced so that they will work on settling the world. It is insufficient for only one nation to be acting properly. --Hisvaduyos 5750 1:395, cited in "The Deed is the Main Thing," Kol Boi Ha'olam, p. 388.

* This phenomenon adds much momentum to the efforts of convincing the citizens of the world to observe the Seven Noachide Laws. When the President proclaims its importance it is easier to encourage average people to accept it and so the opportunity must not be lost. It also provides us with a clear sign from Above that there is no time to lose in teaching the gentiles of the world about G-d. --Shabbos Parshas Tsav, 5747, Sichos in English, vol. 35, p. 76. (The Noahide Laws have been written into United States LAW, by the way, under the guise of National Education Day or Education Day, USA!)

* The Rambam uses the expression, "lakuf ("to forcefully influence") all inhabitants of the world to accept the Noachide commands." Although obviously one must do this in a pleasant, gentle, and peaceful way, it still must be done with persistence. If you have already tried several times, try again nevertheless. We frequently see that although people are sometimes spoken to five times, they do not change until they hear it a sixth time! --Purim, 5747, Sichos in English, vol. 35, p. 4.

* We must therefore deduce that this is an auspicious time to conquer the world with Torah and Yiddishkeit in a pleasant and peaceful way: "All the land is before you." (Bereshis 13:9). --"Conquer the World with Torah: A Message to the Shluchim Convention," 5747, Sichos in English, vol. 33, p.270.

* The Seven Laws must be explained in a way that the nations can relate to and, because non-Jews do not possess genuine free will, they will be willing to change more quickly and easily than a Jew. --Hisvaduyos 5748 3:183, cited in "The Deed is the Main Thing," Kol Boi Ha'olam, p. 385-386.

*...according to the known Jewish legal ruling that Christians are idol worshippers. --Likutei Sichos 37:198, from a letter of the Rebbe dated 26 Iyra, 5726, cited in Kol Boi HaOlam, p. 389.

* The Jews have been given a special mission to teach the gentiles the Seven Noachide Laws which are intended to spread peace and equilibrium throughout the world. Furthermore, a Jew is always conscious of the existence of G-d, Who controls every aspect of the world and watches each deed performed by a Jewish person. Therefore, before he does anything to benefit from the world, he recites a blessing that can be heard by all those around him, even gentiles. When a gentile hears a Jew make a blessing this makes an impression on him as well; for example, it will prevent him from stealing for he will always remember that there is a G-d watching every aspect of his behavior. In this manner, our acts can add to the proliferation of peace and justice in the world. --"Address to N'shei Ubnos Chabad," 26th day of Elul, 5746, Sichos in English, vol. 32, p. 205.

* The seventy bulls offered as mussaf sacrifices throughout the holiday of Sukkos correspond to the seventy nations of the world. Each day the number of bulls sacrificed decreased indicating how the "goyishe" tendencies of the gentiles must always decrease and how it is necessary for them to take on a different identity, one associated with the fulfillment of the seven commandments given to Noach and offering aid and assistance to the Jewish people.... Also, this is associated with the Haftorah read this morning which mentions the Messianic prophecy describing how the holiday of Sukkos will be celebrated by all the nations. Similarly, our celebration of Simchas Bais Hashoevah will also have an effect on the gentiles. Not only will they not disturb the celebrations, they will assist in preparing the celebrations. Furthermore, they will be inspired to participate by standing on the side and clapping and the like. --2nd night of Sukkos, 5747, Sichos in English, vol. 33, pp. 88-89.

* This also implies involving others (even gentiles) in the celebration. Not only must they witness the rejoicing, but they must also take part in the celebrations and attain the unique level of joy appropriate for the present evening. --6th night of Sukkos, 5747, Sichos in English, vol. 33, p. 139.

[Edit]
Messiah Watch International -- Ariel, 16:51:42 04/27/03 Sun

B"H
check out Messiah Watch International very informative site about Messiah , 7 Noahide Laws and curent (and future) events in prophesy www.rabbiyess.com
also check out www.7for70.com
Long Live our Master our Teacher and our Rebbe King Moshiach Forever and Ever!

[Edit]

Replies:

[> Re: Messiah Watch International -- Ray, 04:38:53 08/07/03 Thu

>B"H
>check out Messiah Watch International very informative
>site about Messiah , 7 Noahide Laws and curent (and
>future) events in prophesy www.rabbiyess.com

Ok Ariel I'll check it out. I promise.
Ray




>also check out www.7for70.com

I've been there, the site needs work, (links don't work)



>Long Live our Master our Teacher and our Rebbe King
>Moshiach Forever and Ever!

Sorry Ariel, but if you mean Schneeson he died some years ago.

[Edit]
Re: The Noahide system of law -- QUITTNER, 12:35:26 09/16/02 Mon

Ray, you wrote, in part: >>> ... to convince Christians to abandon Christ <<<
..... As I see it, the problem is that Christianity has evolved considerably over the many centuries, and there are now very many denominations/versions. Obviously they can't all be right, maybe none of the current ones are right.
..... Originally Christianity was a sect/cult of Judaism, with Jesus just a Jewish social reformer who helped many people. He never thought of himself as God, or a son of God, except that we are all children of God if it is true that God created us.
..... According to the 10 Commandments neither Jews nor Christians are permitted to have any other God, and some versions of Christianity have claimed that Jesus is God, which is not permitted, but many Jews apparently believe/accept that this is a basic current teaching of Christianity; I can understand that Jews cannot accept that more than one God exists, and Jews conclude that therefore Christianity must be quite wrong. They think that Jesus per the 4th official gospel claimed to be God, while Jesus obviously had no control over what was written about him many years after his crucifixion.

>>> The basic doctrine is that God gave the Noahide Laws to Adam and Noah and they applied to all mankind, but then the world forgot them. Moses gave the Mosaic Law to the Children of Israel and then (remember this is all from the Talmud) Moses reaffirmed the Noahide Laws for gentiles. <<<
..... Probably the writers of the Talmud believed that the version of the bible available to them actually reflected what really happened, but probably "history" as a part of the stories handed down mouth to mouth (orally) contained a lot of added fiction similarly as the stories written by Homer.

>>> ... the judges of a Noahide court are not Christian, they are subject to Talmudic authority....<<<
..... I think of the Talmud as just a commentary and minutes of discussion sessions of Jewsih clergy, with the supreme (normal) Jewish authority residing in the 5 books of Moses (the Pentateuch = Torah), not in the Talmud. Actually the source of much of what is in the Torah probably are Jewish clergy, not God, and very likely Jesus made that distinction, possibly rejecting some of the parts obviously(?) not by God. (See also below)

>>> The Talmud clearly defines Christianity, (the teaching that Christ is the son of God) as blasphemy and idolatry. <<<
..... That probably is correct as seen from the Jews' point of view, but it is based on a later, garbled, version of Christianity, not on the FIRST version (by Jesus).

>>> ... they don't even hesitate to declare their intention to outlaw Christianity and to execute those who refuse to submit. <<<
..... I suppose the Jews have garbled versions of Judaism just as Christians have garbled versions of Christianity. Can Noahides document the basis of their beliefs? And do they have the authority to censure anyone other than their own members? No, I haven't yet looked at the links you mentioned.

>>> ... They have already succeeded in having the US government endorse the Noahide Laws. For now it is mostly just in writing. But there is a new Judicial program in the US called Justice 2020 that has been adopted by many states. It gives far reaching powers to judges to dispense with due process and to more or less become judge and jury. <<<
..... I am surprised! To what extent does this violate the US constitution? Have there been legal challenges of this?

>>> ... It does not mention Noah nor the so called Noahide Laws.<<<
..... Then under whose authority do Noahides operate?

>>> ... later preaching salvation by grace. <<<
..... I doubt that Jesus actually taught that. That's part of later versions of Christianity.

>>> They say that the original intent of Christ and the Church was to set up a 2 people of God legalist system. The Jews keeping the Mosaic Law as the principal people of God and the Gentiles keeping the Noahide Laws (under the direction of the Rabbis) as the second people of God. <<<
..... No. Jesus started Christianity by Jews for Jews, and the split came later, after the crucifixion, in order to get a lot more quantity of non-Jewish recruits at the expense of the quality of the members of the Kingdom of God.

>>> To the Noahide promoters there is no salvation in Christ. Salvation comes from adhering to the Noahide Laws and submitting to rabbinical authority. <<<
..... No. Salvation comes from living in a special, separate from "the world", theocratic communal community (The Kingdom of God) as described in Acts 2:44-47 and Acts 4:32-37 under only God's (their absolute king's) authority, not that of the rabbis. nor that of the priests, nor that of other clergy.

>>> The "unwritten oral law" (the Mishnah) is what Christ condemned as the traditions of men that nullify the word of God. <<<
..... Yes, Jesus very likely wanted a return to the laws as originated by God, and by God only.

>>> The Talmud openly states that it is the duty of Jews to kill all gentiles.... <<<
..... Which of the two kinds of Talmud and which tractate(s) states this? I'd like to look that up and see what conditions are attached to this.

>>> There is no discussion of Jewish vs Non Jewish Christians in the Talmud. All Christians are considered Minim (blasphemers).<<<
..... I suppose by the time the Talmud was written the Paulist version for non-Jews had won over, and eliminated Jesus' and the other Jewish Christians' version, with the remaining Christians forced by clergy to believe that Jesus was much more than just a very good Jewish man.

>>> If you think that's a good idea and you fancy a religion that insists you deny the divinity of Christ and that you accept rabbinical authority over your religion and that you base your salvation on the keeping of a few little legalistic laws instead of the blood of Jesus shed for the remission of sins, then far be it from me to discourage you. Go for it. Best of luck. <<<
..... It should be quite voluntary now what people believe. We are no longer under the authority of the clerics with their self-appointed means of enforcing on all people their particular garbled version of Christianity. They are no longer permitted to burn people such as "witches", or non-believers, to death on a stake or otherwise.

>>> As for me and my house we'll stick with Jesus. <<<
..... That's OK, but it should be the original version of Christianity, not a later, garbled one, of who Jesus was, what he did, and what he wanted of his disciples.

[Edit]

Replies:

[> Re: The Noahide system of law -- Ray, 09:07:26 08/07/03 Thu

Quittner
>Ray, you wrote, in part: " ... to convince Christians to
>abandon Christ"
>As I see it, the problem is that Christianity has evolved
>considerably over the many centuries, and there are now
>very many denominations/versions.Obviously they can't all
>be right, maybe none of the current ones are right.
>..... Originally Christianity was a sect/cult of
>Judaism, with Jesus just a Jewish social reformer who
>helped many people. He never thought of himself as
>God, or a son of God, except that we are all children
>of God if it is true that God created us.
---------------
-Ray-
You obviously don't know the NT scriptures. Jesus is the "only begotten Son of God". He is "The Christ, the Son of the Living God". He is the "I AM" that spoke to Moses from the burning bush. He made it very clear that He was the promised Messiah, the Christ, the Redeemer, the way the truth and the light, the door to the sheepfold, the good shepherd etc etc etc etc.
---------------------
Quittner
>..... According to the 10 Commandments neither Jews
>nor Christians are permitted to have any other God,
>and some versions of Christianity have claimed that
>Jesus is God, which is not permitted, but many Jews
>apparently believe/accept that this is a basic current
>teaching of Christianity; I can understand that Jews
>cannot accept that more than one God exists, and Jews
>conclude that therefore Christianity must be quite
>wrong.
------------------------
Ray
Jesus is not "another" God. He is the very I AM that dictated the 10 commandments to Moses. He took on human form. That was the only way he could redeem us. He died in our place and thereby paid for our sins. He is the son of God and the son of man He was human, flesh and blood like us but with the mind and heart and power of God.

---------------
Quittner
>..... Probably the writers of the Talmud believed that
>the version of the bible available to them actually
>reflected what really happened, but probably "history"
>as a part of the stories handed down mouth to mouth
>(orally) contained a lot of added fiction similarly as
>the stories written by Homer.
--------------
Ray
Whatever they believed, the simple matter is that the oral traditions change and negate the true scriptures, Jesus said so. So even if they believe it that doesn't mean I have to. And I certainly don't intend to let them impose their heresy on me.

------------
Quittner
I think of the Talmud as just a commentary and
>minutes of discussion sessions of Jewsih clergy, with
>the supreme (normal) Jewish authority residing in the
>5 books of Moses (the Pentateuch = Torah), not in the
>Talmud.
---------------------
Ray
It would surprise me Quittner if you truly didn't know that the Talmud is 99% of Rabbinic studies. The 5 books of Moses are used ceremonially and their interpretation always passes through the Talmud.
-------------------
Quittner
Actually the source of much of what is in the
>Torah probably are Jewish clergy, not God, and very
>likely Jesus made that distinction, possibly rejecting
>some of the parts obviously(?) not by God.
-----------------
Ray
Be that as it may. The 5 books of Moses wouldn't interest me at all if they didn't lead to Jesus as Savior.It's certain that the Talmud and the Noahide Laws don't lead in that direction.
--------------------
Ray
>>>> The Talmud clearly defines Christianity, (the
>teaching that Christ is the son of God) as blasphemy
>and idolatry. <<<
----------------
Quittner
>..... That probably is correct as seen from the Jews'
>point of view, but it is based on a later, garbled,
>version of Christianity, not on the FIRST version (by
>Jesus).
---------------
Ray
How is it Quittner that you somehow know a "true" Christianity that the Christians have forgotten. That just happens to depend on the Talmud for its "truth".
----------------------
Ray
>... they (Noahide Promoters) don't even hesitate to
>declare their intention to outlaw Christianity and to
>execute those who refuse to submit.
------------
Quittner
>..... I suppose the Jews have garbled versions of
>Judaism just as Christians have garbled versions of
>Christianity. Can Noahides document the basis of their
>beliefs? And do they have the authority to censure
>anyone other than their own members? No, I haven't yet
>looked at the links you mentioned.
---------------
Ray
That's just the point here. I don't care what they believe as long as it doesn't interfere with my rights. But the stated aim of the antichrists pushing the Noahide Laws is to impose their theocracy one everyone. No thanks!!
-------------
Ray
... They have already succeeded in having the US
>government endorse the Noahide Laws. For now it is
>mostly just in writing. But there is a new Judicial
>program in the US called Justice 2020 that has been
>adopted by many states. It gives far reaching powers
>to judges to dispense with due process and to more or
>less become judge and jury.
----------------
Quittner
>..... I am surprised! To what extent does this violate
>the US constitution? Have there been legal challenges
>of this?
----------------
Ray
If there is anything left of the constitution after Bush and his New World Order get finished, the Noahide Commondeath will finish it off entirely. As for legal challenges, realize that the Noahide laws were called the bedrock of the American civilization by unanymous vote of both houses of Congress and signed by the President. Then take a look at the supreme court's composition and reflect a moment about how all that came about. No there have not been any serious legal challenges to the endorsement of the Noahide Laws. It would be futile costly and dangerous to even try it.
--------------------
Ray
>... It (the New Testament) does not mention Noah nor the so called Noahide Laws.<<<
---------------------
Quittner
>..... Then under whose authority do Noahides operate?
--------------------
Ray
Very good question Quittner. If it's anti-christ then it must be antichrist, Don't you think?
--------------------
Ray
... later preaching salvation by grace.
--------------------
Quittner
>..... I doubt that Jesus actually taught that. That's
>part of later versions of Christianity.
-------------------
Ray
Then what did Jesus mean when he said "I am the way the truth and the Light, No man cometh unto the father but by Me.? Or when He said, "He that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live.?" Or When He said, "Thy sins be forgiven thee.?" Or a hundred other times when Jesus clearly stated and demonstrated His authority over sin and death (without the law).
----------------------
Ray

They (ACs) say that the original intent of Christ and
>the Church was to set up a 2 people of God legalist
>system. The Jews keeping the Mosaic Law as the
>principal people of God and the Gentiles keeping the
>Noahide Laws (under the direction of the Rabbis) as
>the second people of God.
-------------------
Quittner
>..... No. Jesus started Christianity by Jews for Jews,
>and the split came later, after the crucifixion, in
>order to get a lot more quantity of non-Jewish
>recruits at the expense of the quality of the members
>of the Kingdom of God.
-------------
Ray
I already treated that above Quittner. Jesus clearly told His disciples to "go into all the world" and to "teach all nations". He himself witnessed about the kingdom to a Samaritan woman and made it clear that it was for all.
I don't know where you get your doctrines here but they are not from the Word.
----------------------
Ray
>>>> To the Noahide promoters there is no salvation in
>Christ. Salvation comes from adhering to the Noahide
>Laws and submitting to rabbinical authority.
----------------------
Quittner
>..... No. Salvation comes from living in a special,
>separate from "the world", theocratic communal
>community (The Kingdom of God) as described in Acts
>2:44-47 and Acts 4:32-37 under only God's (their
>absolute king's) authority, not that of the rabbis nor >that of the priests, nor that of other clergy..
----------------------
Ray
No Quittner, Read the Noahide sites, they clearly state that (for gentiles) salvation is "earned" by observance of the Noahide Laws. They even have a bonus program whereby one can earn extra points with God by stealing the points of others somehow. I'll post the link when I find it.
-------------------
Ray
> The "unwritten oral law" (the Mishnah) is what
>Christ condemned as the traditions of men that nullify
>the word of God. <<<
-------------------
Quittner
>..... Yes, Jesus very likely wanted a return to the
>laws as originated by God, and by God only.
----------------------
Ray
No Quittner, Read the gospels before you try to interpret them, Christ said His body was broken and his blood was shed as a new and better Testament to replace the old Testament. He didn't come to enforce the Law He came to fulfill it.

--------------------
Ray
>>>> The Talmud openly states that it is the duty of
>Jews to kill all gentiles....
-----------------
Quittner
..... Which of the two kinds of Talmud and which
>tractate(s) states this? I'd like to look that up and
>see what conditions are attached to this.
-------------------------
Ray
The Authorized Soccino edition of the Babylonian Talmud
Leah has printed some of this sort of Talmudic references and I will post others if you please.
-------------------------
Ray
>>>> There is no discussion of Jewish vs Non Jewish
>Christians in the Talmud. All Christians are
>considered Minim (blasphemers).<<<
----------------------
Quittner
>..... I suppose by the time the Talmud was written the
>Paulist version for non-Jews had won over, and
>eliminated Jesus' and the other Jewish Christians'
>version, with the remaining Christians forced by
>clergy to believe that Jesus was much more than just a
>very good Jewish man.
------------------------
Ray
Paul never suggested killing Jews. Yet right in the Talmud it is stated that it is a religious duty to kill, rob, cheat, and enslave the goyim. This is not just stated once but again and again.
-----------------------
Ray
>>>> If you think that's a good idea and you fancy a
>religion that insists you deny the divinity of Christ
>and that you accept rabbinical authority over your
>religion and that you base your salvation on the
>keeping of a few little legalistic laws instead of the
>blood of Jesus shed for the remission of sins, then
>far be it from me to discourage you. Go for it. Best
>of luck.
---------------------
Quittner
>..... It should be quite voluntary now what people
>believe. We are no longer under the authority of the
>clerics with their self-appointed means of enforcing
>on all people their particular garbled version of
>Christianity. They are no longer permitted to burn
>people such as "witches", or non-believers, to death
>on a stake or otherwise.
----------------------
Ray
That's the very issue here Quittner, The Noahide Commondeath will be a revival of just that sort of theocratic abuse. I'm with you on this point, I'm all for liberty and freedom. As long as someone else's exercise of liberty doesn't interfere with my own.
>>>> As for me and my house we'll stick with Jesus. <<<
-------------------------
Quittner
>..... That's OK, but it should be the original version
>of Christianity, not a later, garbled one, of who
>Jesus was, what he did, and what he wanted of his
>disciples.
----------------------
Ray
Do you mean to say Quittner, that if my idea of Christianity doesn't meet your particular standards that you would try to prevent me and my house from the right to worship as we please???

[Edit]

[> [> Re: The Noahide system of law -- QUITTNER, 12:31:31 08/08/03 Fri

Ray, I am NOT a Noahide, nor am I a member of your particular version of Christianity.
========================

> Ray
>Do you mean to say Quittner, that if my idea of
>Christianity doesn't meet your particular standards
>that you would try to prevent me and my house from the
>right to worship as we please???
------------------------
..... In many countries you are as free to believe or not to believe particular teachings as I am. I am not trying to prevent you, nor your house, of doing or not doing anything. With so very many denominations of Christianity now in existance, it is obvious that what Jesus was actually teaching is NOT what many people in 2003 believe he was teaching. But that is their, their various teachers', and other sources', responsibility.

[Edit]
eBook on happiness -- L.M. Stephenson Jr., 13:21:12 08/11/03 Mon

Copy the line below. Paste it into your browser's URL address box. And click 'Go.'
http://www.faithwriters.com/e-book-details.php?id=178

[Edit]
On Saying "No"...... -- Gary, 11:52:27 08/12/03 Tue

I have a comment on saying "No to Noahide". Since it is prophetic that such things happen, is it not an unrealistic expectation that you (or any one individual or group) expect that *somehow*, Noahide and it's consequences will ever be averted? It's like the government's pipe dreams of a drug / crime free America; it never has and never will be stopped - it is rendered but a dream.

Furthermore, it is also prophesy that things in all arenas will do nothing but get worse (as we can all se by looking around us). Scripture clearly states that morality, etc., will basically go down the drain. If it's prophesy, there's NO changing it.

So, I guess my question is, do you really expect to change anything (or are you merely trying to make people aware)?

Just curious,
Gary

[Edit]
The Noahide movement -- QUITTHER, 10:17:25 09/09/02 Mon

Ray, I know nothing, so far, about the Noahide movement, and no doubt you will explain something about it soon, including its lifestyle and whereabouts..
..... As I understand it, there were very many changes made after Jesus was crucified, and in order for the new, still Jewish, group to get stronger they admitted into the "Kingdom of God" non-Jews who didn't have to obey the many Jewish laws, but only the much easier Noah's laws (which I have read). These people brought with them their various mythologies that eventually were incorporated into later versions of Christianity, with the teachings of Jesus no longer being binding on members, and with the entrance requirements to membership of the group made very much easier.
..... Probably the followers of Noah, if any, want(ed) much more freedom than Jesus' original teachings/version of Christianity required, and I am looking forward to your explanations.

[Edit]

Replies:

[> Hi Quitther -- Ray, 02:38:08 09/10/02 Tue

Hi Quitther

What you've come across is a bit of disinformation meant to convince Christians that the early church employed the Noahide Laws for gentile converts. This is entirely false.
The so called Noahide Laws first appeared hundreds of years later in one of the volumes of the Talmud. In Acts 15 some Jewish Christians were making trouble in the church by saying that gentile converts would have to be circumcised and follow the Mosaic Law. The church elders decided that, as the law had been fulfilled at calvary, circulcision was no longer necessary, nor were all the nit-picky laws of rituals and sacrifices. They surely gave no place at all to the "oral law" or "mishnah" that Jesus condemned as traditions of men that made the law of God of none effect.
They simply stated a few basic rules which were all included in the Mosaic Law, no idols, no fornication, don't eat meat sacrificed to idols, avoid bloodshed etc.
There was no distinction within the church concerning the requirements of lawkeeping for Jews and Gentiles. In Jerusalem where all of the disciples were former Jews, they did tend to hang on to the old traditions. These were called the concision or the circumcision and they caused a lot of trouble in the church. Over time they all backslid and the church moved entirely away from such legalism.


The so called Noahide system of law did not appear for several hundred years after the time of Christ in one of the volumes that comprise the Talmud.

It calls for a 2 track legal system in which Jews are held to respect the Mosaic Law but gentiles are judged by a different set of laws. These laws outlaw Christ. The Noahide system is as far from Christianity as night is from day.

[Edit]

[> [> Re: Hi Quitther -- QUITTNER, 12:10:09 11/12/02 Tue

Ray, you wrote, in part: >>> The so called Noahide Laws first appeared hundreds of years later in one of the volumes of the Talmud.<<<
..... As I remember it, please check it out, per Acts 15 (INCLUDING 15:20 and 15:29) and also per one of Paul's letters, there was at least one conference in Jerusalem, with Paul present, at which it was decided that non-Jews didn't have to obey the laws of Moses, but only those of Noah. See also books by Hyam Maccoby, such as "The Mythmaker" and "Paul and Hellenism".
..... According to pages 379-380 of the "Encyclopaedia of Religion and Ethics (edited by J. Hastings) the Talmud's tractate "Sanhedrin" on (56a) lists 7 Noachian laws, but, according to the Encyclopaedia, "the list grew, and in the 3rd cent. Ulla could speak of 30 commandments to which Noachidae owed obedience.... The original seven, however, were the most important, and by observing those as a minimum a Gentile settling among Jews might be advanced to the privileges and responsibilities of the proselyte."
..... Note that Christianity, started by Jesus, and was originally by Jews for Jews, has evolved considerably since then, and the modern denominations/versions of Christianity may not include/resemble the Noachian laws any more. I have not seen any anti-Jesus remarks attributed to Naochides, nor does the Encyclopaedia mention them; do you have a source for them?
..... The Encyclopaedia quotes Maimonides (Melahim viii 11): "Whosoever confesses himself liable to observe the seven precepts of Noah and is dilligent in fulfilling them, belongs to the pious among the nations and has a portion in the world to come".

[Edit]

[> [> [> Re: Hi Quitther -- Ray, 02:47:36 08/07/03 Thu

You'll never get Christian history from the Jewish Encyclopedia. The first mention ever of the Noahide Laws was in the Talmud many hundreds of years after Paul.

Yes, Paul did state that there was no need to bring the gentile believers under the laws of Moses. They are in the liberty of Christ. As such they are not under the law but under the spirit. Never the twain shall meet.

No, Paul never said anything at all about the Laws of Noah. They did not exist. They are a Talmudic invention that seem to be derived from Egyptian gnostic fables of the 2nd century.

Look in your Bible, the Noahide Laws have nothing to do with Noah.

And they certainly have nothing to do with Paul or any other Christian in history. They have been created with one thing in mind, to subordinate Christianity to the control of antichrist Pharisees.

[Edit]

[> [> [> [> Re: Hi Quitther -- QUITTNER, 11:57:42 08/20/03 Wed

Ray, there is much about Paul in the literature. One of these authors is Hyam Maccoby, and two of his books are:
1) The Mythmaker. Paul and the invention of Christianity (1986)
2) Paul and Hellenism (1991)
..... I think also Graham Phillips wrote about the background of Paul in his book "The Marian Conspiracy ..." (2000)
..... As I understand it, quoting from memory, after Jesus had been crucified by the Romans there was a meeting of Paul with the leaders of the Jerusalem church, and they decided then and there that non-Jews could become Christians without having to conform to the laws of the Jews, provided they obey all of the Noahide laws as a minimum. It seems that what Paul wrote about that meeting is NOT the same as what the author of Acts wrote in Acts about that same meeting. Anyway, it's probably not important in 2003, nor beyond.

[Edit]

[> Re: The Noahide movement -- The Lowest Room, 18:08:28 07/13/03 Sun

WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!. Do not listen to buddy who posted above, HES OUT TO LUNCH!

READ.....

http://www25.brinkster.com/lowestroom/iniquity2/iniquity2.html

and

http://www25.brinkster.com/lowestroom/synagogue2/satan2.html

[Edit]

[> [> Re: The Noahide movement -- QUITTNER, 08:22:39 08/05/03 Tue

Maybe buddy is back from lunch by now? Have you had your lunch yet? If not, maybe it's time for YOU, The Lowest Room, to be out for lunch? [LAUGHS]

[Edit]

[> Re: The Noahide movement -- Ray, 04:32:14 08/07/03 Thu

>Ray, I know nothing, so far, about the Noahide
>movement, and no doubt you will explain something
>about it soon, including its lifestyle and
>whereabouts..

The Noahide Movement is no movement at all. It is an invention of the Lubavitcher sect of Hassidic Kabbalistic Judaism. If the Lubavitchers did not invest so much effort and money into promoting it the Noahide movement would disappear immediately.

>..... As I understand it, there were very many changes
>made after Jesus was crucified, and in order for the
>new, still Jewish, group to get stronger they admitted
>into the "Kingdom of God" non-Jews who didn't have to
>obey the many Jewish laws, but only the much easier
>Noah's laws (which I have read).

You seem confused.

First, Jesus himself told His disciples to "go and teach all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" (the trinity). He also confirmed this commandment through the vision to Peter concerning the fact that what He had cleansed was no longer unclean. His salvation was always intended for all. So this was no change.

Second, it was never the disciples who ever admitted anyone into the "kingdom of God". That entry cannot be controlled by humans. God calls people to come and he supplies the grace to allow them to enter by their own free will.

Third, once again, there is no mention anywhere in the Bible of the Noahide Laws. They were never required of any disciple, Jew or Gentile. Nor was the Mosaic Law ever required of any disciple, Jew or Gentile.

The rules were the same for everyone. Repent and be baptized for the remission of sin, Accept Christ as the sovereign lord of your life, love God and others, things like that.

>These people brought
>with them their various mythologies that eventually
>were incorporated into later versions of Christianity,
>with the teachings of Jesus no longer being
>binding on members, and with the entrance
>requirements to membership of the group made very much
>easier.

Mythologies did indeed try to invade Christianity. The concision tried to bring the entire bondage of the Judaic Tribal mythology into the church. But they were rejected, along with many others. It's true that over the centuries many heresies did enter in and cause a lot of trouble. No denomination can claim to be free of such influences. Nonetheless God himself still watches over His sheep and even in the midst of it all His power is sufficient to guide us into truth. If our faith is in an organization it will fail. But if we trust Him, He will never fail.

>..... Probably the followers of Noah, if any, want(ed)
>much more freedom than Jesus' original
>teachings/version of Christianity required, and I am
>looking forward to your explanations.

The followers of Noah?????????
Find that anywhere in the Bible. Then I'll answer.

Ray

[Edit]

[> Re: The Noahide movement -- Gary Schooley, 21:45:55 08/10/03 Sun

In scanning the replies to this, it seems that no one has mentioned the main reason that Jesus was offered to the Gentiles (too): the bulk and majority of the Jews rejected him:

Matthew 21:42  Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. 46 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.

It wasn't a "political movement", where he had to garner support, or a majority; he would have given himself as sacrifice even if there were only one human alive. That's the nature of a sacrificial lamb.

Acts 13:45  But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.

The Jews rejected Jesus, and they have regreted it ever since. Their jealousy and bitterness then is no different than today; Noachide today is a mirror image of the contradicting and blaspheming that started way back then.

Acts 13:46  Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

They did not manipulate the laws of grace in order to gain support or following; they had no need of this, as God did it for them:

Acts 2:47  Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Today's Jews, limited to law only, have no concept of grace by faith. When they saw God's obvious anointing on Jesus, and that his followers were favored and blessed far above them, they became outraged and jealous, hardening their hearts forever to the only salvation they would ever have a chance at. Now, Satan has further used their bitterness to fulfill prophesy, and insure that the followers of his arch enemy, Jesus, will soon be executed en mass.

On a side note, when the beheadings do begin, then the world will see how very few are truly born again Christians, as the majority of today's so-called "christians" quickly tuck tail and run! (eagerly accept the mark of the beast to save their necks)

So, if it's a "popularity contest", as you make it out to be, being a true Christian won't be very popular at all in those days. No amount of "religious amenities" will attract followers then. The only thing that will attract some, is the fact that it is a perfect fulfillment of Scripture (which is why Scripture is under attack and being re-written to remove "certain" things; "New World Scripture").

Gary

[Edit]
I dont' know how to say it... -- Patrick, 14:51:56 09/03/03 Wed

I'am so happy, I just have to tell it everybody :-)
So, please believe in your lives and say "Yes"...because the Live is so wonderful :-)
...I'm sorry but I just wanted to make people belive in themselves...
















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[Edit]

Replies:

[> Re: I dont' know how to say it... -- Gary Schooley, 21:44:37 09/03/03 Wed

You failed. Just what are you babbling about? You made no point and no sense.

Gary

[Edit]
We finally found it... -- Stone, 06:38:54 09/20/03 Sat

After a long time we finnaly found it:

....sorry thats wrong here....




















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[Edit]

Replies:

[> Re: We finally found it... -- Gary Schooley, 09:04:51 09/21/03 Sun

Again, same garbage: no point made, no sense to it. I wish people could do more than just *grunt* cryptic and totally meaningless messages. Why even bother?

Gary

[Edit]
False religions -- Paul, 07:52:14 11/01/03 Sat

As a none believer in modern religions it appears to me that they are all false... Under the 10 commandments or the Noachides....Thou shall not kill and thou shall not covert are two examples of the way in which Gods law is being ignored...

[Edit]
NOAHIDES ARE RIGHTEOUS GENTILES!! -- SARAH, 09:14:55 11/15/03 Sat

NO TO NOAHIDES??!! Are you idolatrous?! Noahides are righteous in G-d's eyes and are so precious that they are considered higher than priests! You should do more studying if you shun the Torah.

[Edit]

Replies:

[> Re: NOAHIDES ARE RIGHTEOUS GENTILES!! -- Gary Schooley, 05:08:46 01/28/04 Wed

YOU should do more study of the Scriptures - there is NO righteousness outside of that which Jesus paid for. Without the shedding of blood, there is NO remission of sin - look it up. Satan WANTS people (like you) to forsake Jesus and try to make it into God's kingdom on their own so they will be eternally damned. That's Satan's plan, and foolish, Scripturally illiterate people like you make it very easy for him. Jesus WARNED that FEW would enter his kingdom, and you are a good example of why.

Gary

[Edit]
What percentage of the total population are Noahides? -- QUITTNER, 12:00:47 01/15/04 Thu

Probably their numbers in 2004 are negligible. So what is all the fuss about?

[Edit]

Replies:

[> Re: What percentage of the total population are Noahides? -- Gary Schooley, 06:27:38 01/29/04 Thu

>Probably their numbers in 2004 are negligible. So what
>is all the fuss about?

First, it's a clear fact that the Noahide movement IS growing and gaining momentum and popularity. There are a number of posts here even of people testifying that they "found" it and have embraced it.

But, beyond that, there is the HUGE fact that Noahide intends and has set the stage to exactly fulfill the Scriptural prophesy of beheading ANYONE who embraces JESUS. Even though the Noahide followers are relatively few in numbers, there was obviousely enough of them with enough political clout to actually pass into LAW the Seven Noahide LAWS (under the guise of "Education Day USA").

As things progress and the lines are drawn, they will become clearer and more distinct, and when heads actually begin to roll, there will be much stronger motivation for people to make a decision one way or the other. Knowing the natural cowardice of the average person, coupled with today's overwhelming religious hypocrisy and ignorance of God and his word, MANY people will suddenly become Noahides.

Any LAW capable of having people BEHEADED for their loyalty to Jesus, IS something to make a big fuss about.

Gary

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