Re: Outside looking in -- Zuvanich

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Saturday, May 16, 05:47:23pm

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Subject: Re: Outside looking in

Author:
Beth

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Date Posted: 14:45:05 02/20/05 Sun
In reply to: Baxter 's message, "Outside looking in" on 17:44:13 02/16/05 Wed

Yay! We needed more conservatives to help fight off the wave of liberal craziness that has engulfed the family.

Welcome, Baxter =)

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[> [> Subject: Re: Outside looking in

Author:
Edie
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Date Posted: 19:19:39 02/20/05 Sun

Caution! You are in danger of changing the balance of power in the forum! Michael is vociferous enough on his own that the liberal contingent can only keep him at bay through total unity. Kind of like a game of "Red Rover" with all the skinny kids shoring up defenses against the one future linebacker thundering across the field toward them. Speaking as the official tree-hugging conservative (yes, we do exist), the only posts I find unwelcome are the ones written in a tone that displays total lack of respect for the other side's opinions. Remember, there are a lot of brilliant people in this world and they don't all agree with you, or me, or each other.
The forum will be a more entertaining place if the opposing voices aren't afraid to come out of the dark and speak their minds. They have interesting and perplexing viewpoints, and they should be drawn out and studied, not drawn out, pounced upon and eaten.

-e
"Hey, turns out it WAS rocket science!"

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Outside looking in

Author:
Katy
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Date Posted: 21:34:05 02/20/05 Sun

Hi Baxter. Glad to have another voice on the forum. Always glad to have you post too Edie, you aren't on near enough. I unfortunately do not have enough time at the moment to say what I would like so I just wanted to say I'll be back in a few days ( my computer and I are living apart at the moment) and have a lot more to say. Until then I'll just say Mike and Baxter, and Beth you misunderstand the liberal viewpoint. I absolutely believe freedom for all people is most desirable. How our country and it's leaders conduct themselves is very important as well. We sometimes act as though we can do whatever we want because we are "right", and because we are a very powerful country. We are definitely not always right and in order to have a better world for all we have to work together with other world leaders and organizations, which means not always getting our way. Also poverty has different faces within our country and abroad. Some of the issues are the same, some different. Yes there are some lazy people here, but I have an interset in this issue and also have worked a little bit in Tulsa with some poor people and it is a much more complex issue that you seem to think. In our country teaching people that they have choices, that they can learn, and be responsible, how to be good parents, to take pride in themselves, etc. will make a big difference in what you see as laziness. When people grow up in a certain culture even one of sloth and dirt, they do not necessarily understand how to be different. Social service and non-profit programs help in those areas. A lot of our poor are also mentally ill or have disabilities such as retardation but may look as if they are lazy or don't care to take care of themselves. I'm sure I haven't addressed all that you have mentioned but I'm out of time for the moment. More later.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Outside looking in

Author:
michael
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Date Posted: 00:26:11 02/21/05 Mon

In fact I differentiate between the "liberal" point of view that is espoused by the liberal leadership and the point of view held by the rank and file liberal.

I know from my own experience that most liberals are caring and compassionate people who want whats best for the poor and disadvantaged. Unfortunately I think those people have been co-opted by the leadership that is far less worried about what's best for people and is far more concerned about acquiring and retaining power. The reason there is such a vocal crowd in the OBOE camp is not because of the President's record which has been far too accommodating to big government for conservatives (libertarian and republican). The OBOE crowd is there because the "liberal" leadership spin machine has demonized the Pres. at every turn, making him sound like Satan's Sock Puppet and the rank and file liberals have bought the spin.

I've heard a lot of conservatives and libertarians complaining about Bush's liberal inclinations. He boosted the budget for the Education department (liberal behavior), he imposed tariffs on steel (liberal), he spent billions on aids relief in Africa (liberal) and he's hired more minorities and women for more positions of true power than any President in history (not liberal but perceived to be so). While some may disagree with the war in Iraq, it is undeniable that the result so far has been the liberation of 25 million Iraqis from the oppression of a truly evil dictator and substantial movement of that country towards a much freer and more representative form of government (there is still a long way to go obviously but the movement is definitely in the right direction.).

I could rant on but I think I've made the point sufficiently that Bush isn't deserving of the demonization that he has received by the left (by the right, maybe), which brings me back to the original point. The leadership of the left is not so much liberal as they are power hungry so equating liberals in general with the liberal leadership is unfair and inaccurate. The liberal rank and file may be wrong or misguided but they have the best interest of the people at heart. The liberal leadership on the other hand, needs to be replaced.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Outside looking in
Author: michael [ Edit \| View ]	Date Posted: 23:58:52 02/20/05 Sun Geez, you make me sound like such a bully. Am I really such a bully? Am I... Am I!? Say Uncle, Say Uncle! [ Post a Reply to This Message ]