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Subject: Re: Outside looking in Author: michael [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ] Date Posted: 18:35:02 02/28/05 Mon In reply to: Mom 's message, "Re: Outside looking in" on 14:16:12 02/25/05 Fri Frankly, I think that what originally caused you to be conservative was your respect for Dad's opinions, which were guided by logic and analysis. Without that influence your own natural inclination to emotional responses outweighs the analytical and you end up buying the more emotionally appealing leftist positions. [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Replies:

[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Outside looking in Author: Beth [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 00:52:25 03/02/05 Wed Isn't this the same conversation you all had a couple of months ago? I think it went something like this: Mike: Inflammatory remarks . . . blah blah blah, you guys are all wrong. Mom: We are not wrong, you are, and this is why . . . blah blah blah . . . emotional tree-hugging stuff. Bush is bad. Mike: No, you're wrong, and this is why . . . blah blah blah . . . You're too emotional (superior I'm-always-right tone) . . . yay for Bush. Mom: Everything conservative = bad. Blah blah blah, yay for trees. I am NOT wrong (worked up tone). Katy: Yeah! Phil: I'm the only reasonable person here (superior, I'M always right tone). Various other people: But . . . yeah . . . blah blah blah. We're liberals and proud of it. Me: Something inane and totally off-topic to distract you guys from arguing about politics again. Jody, Joe, John: . . . (non-posting slackers). Mike: Yeah, but you guys are still wrong. And this is why I'm always right, and you're not. Ever. (extremely inflammatory remarks) But I don't mean to offend (cheery, I'm-still-right tone). Mom: Oh you didn't offend, haha. But you're still wrong (trying-to-make-peace tone, but really holding it all in until she explodes). AND THIS IS WHY . . . Mike: No, I'm never wrong, and again, this is why . . . blah blah blah blah. Edie: Voice of Reason here . . . Mike, stop it. Mike: But they're so wrong . . . . . . . Oh yeah, this one IS different. It starts out: New guy: Hey, I've been noticing that most of you guys are wrong. Mike: Yeah, you're right, new guy, they really are wrong, and this is why . . . Mom: No we're not, and THIS is why . . . . . . . . . . . ******* You people have pushed me to the point where, in a recent conversation with a friend, when he said "I don't vote", I said "GOOD". See what you're doing to me? So anyway, a completely new topic would be nice. Oh, and sorry if I offended anyone. It was all in good fun. =) [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Outside looking in Author: Mom Z [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 22:45:54 03/02/05 Wed Thank you, Beth, for that last post. I'm going to print it out and paste it to my computer to remind me not to go down this road again. To you, Mike, I can only say that you don't know me very well and you certainly didn't know your Dad all that well either. If anything, he was more liberal than I was in many areas and I think you'd be surprised if he could enter the discussions now. But if it pleases you to think that he was always the logical, sane one and that I am nothing more than a ditzy gray-haired blonde, so be it. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Outside looking in Author: michael [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 17:20:52 03/03/05 Thu Yeah, Thanks Beth. I shoulda known better. Later [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Outside looking in Author: michael [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 17:15:43 03/03/05 Thu Way to see a thing in black and white Mom. I didn't say you were a ditzy blonde or that Dad was a Vulcan but if it pleases you to misconstrue my words that way so be it. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Outside looking in Author: Beth [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 20:31:53 03/03/05 Thu Hey, I was just kidding, really. And you people should lighten up. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Outside looking in Author: Katy [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 19:03:53 03/04/05 Fri I like this forum, and I've always liked discussing things with all of my family, but lately it's gotten unhappy, or uncomfortable or something. I want to keep the forum so let's have some suggestions on etiquette...not a lot of rules but something so we don't get so upset or rude. Actually we should be able to do that without rules, just be more sensitive to each other. We have not all been together for so long and our discussions were one of the things I liked best so maybe we could talk about some interesting, or funny stuff that's not so touchy. I would also like to think my family members actually think I have a brain that is in use and not pea sized as well. I think all of you have GI-NORMOUS(a beth-ism) brains..eh, actually i'm just sucking up. And now I have to go...By the way Mike, Rachel and I saw one of the pictures you sent Mom of Jacob. He's pretty good looking for a long haired skater type. Rach thinks he'd fit right in here with all the cousins. we'll have to get some pictures on of all the kids. Can we put pictures on here Forum master-person, and if so why don't you do some and Mike or Edie could do some from their end? [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Outside looking in Author: Mom [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 21:51:12 03/04/05 Fri Well, hey, I tried making nice and you insulted me. I'm with Katy, tho, let's not get hostile with each other (I admit, I was being hostile) and let's talk about stuff that is funny or up-lifting or something. I know when I 'm with you, Mike, we talk these things out without either of us getting mad (at least I didn't then) but we don't have body language or facial expressions or tone of voice to modify what we say, so some things don't go over well. I'm glad you are passionate about what you believe and so am I, so, I don't want to be mad, Mick. I'll make up if you will. And I am going to quit talking politics and religion; what difference does it make? We all vote our conscience in private and that is what is important. And, also, what our spiritual beliefs are is no one's business but our own. So, here's the new me - hope I can stick by this new resolution. I'm gonna try. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Outside looking in Author: michael [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 01:53:52 03/05/05 Sat I can't control how you take what I say but that was no insult. I am sorry you took offense. As I said to Beth, I shoulda known better. Mea Culpa. I won't be talkin' politics or religion here anymore. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Outside looking in Author: Michael [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 02:23:56 03/05/05 Sat I'll assume for the sake of "who the hell else would it be" that this "brain" comment is for me. Let me clue you in, I don't argue with cretins so if I thought you couldn't keep up I wouldn't bother saying anything. As for "Gi-normous", I thought it came from a SpikeTV show called "This Just In". [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Outside looking in Author: Katy [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 10:13:30 03/05/05 Sat The brain comment was not just for you Mike. It just seems like those that disagree with me seem to give the impression I couldn't have made an informed or reasonable opinion because my views are more liberal. Anyway, maybe sometime down the road we can talk politics again. Until then there's an interesting article in Discover right now about evolution. As to the origin of gi-normous my connection to it was through Beth thats all I meant. <3 [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Outside looking in Author: Beth [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 14:50:08 03/05/05 Sat I'm gonna start deleting stuff if you guys don't play nice. I do have the power . . . bwa ha ha haaaa . . And Katy - evolution, really? Do we want to open that bag of worms? But if we are, I have a really cool evolution debate tape that everyone should watch. And before you get all suspicious, it's very balanced; there's no outside commentary on who's more right or more wrong or whatever. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Outside looking in Author: michael [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 09:51:49 03/07/05 Mon Not to get to psychobabble on ya, but could it be that you perceive condescension because they're disagreeing with you rather than because they're actually being condescending? A lot of folks disagree with me about most everything (its such a burden being the right one in a population of the wrong.) but only a minority of them are condescending, and I don't care because they're wrong so their condescension only makes them foolish in addition to being wrong. When I argue with anyone its never my intention to be condescending. I focus on making sure that my argument is sound and I state it with confidence and authority. I may also, for the stubborn, restate or refine my argument to be more clear. My intention in any argument is to convince or at least win on the merits and never to diminish or belittle those I argue with or against. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Outside looking in Author: Mom [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 22:39:19 03/19/05 Sat Just a note here - I got kind of carried away several posts back and came down hard on Michael. I apologize for that. I do think it's a futile exercise to try to convince someone else of my position on politics or religion. Haven't we been warned since childhood (mine, at least) not to discuss polticis or religion with family and friends? A cliche to be sure, but true because of that. So, I was wrong; I apologize to Mike and anyone else who was offended by my rant. Love to all. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Outside looking in Author: michael [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 10:40:41 03/21/05 Mon No apology necessary. I was just taken aback that someone that strives to be right-brained would be offended at being characterized that way. I've never had a problem talking politics, religion or anything else with anyone, although sometimes others have a problem discussing those things with me. I think the real problem lies in the perception that the person you're having the discussion with dis-respects you because they disagree with you. Since I disagree with everyone about something or another I've come to realize it isn't good to take such things personally, or to give such disagreements too much weight. Hell, even Isaac Asimov (a fairly clever fellow) was dead wrong about gun control, that doesn't mean I thought less of his knowledge of science or physics. I guess my question would be, why get upset about stuff you have no ability to influence? I can argue about some subject endlessly and never change anyone's opinion and never have my opinion changed so why treat the argument as any more important than a game of Unreal Tournament? It is pretty cool when you can win an argument but the objective of an argument is to win more than to persuade. It is however, pretty cool when I can actually change someone's perspective on an issue or when someone else can add a point to the argument that I can't refute or haven't heard before (that makes me do research and once in a great while, alter my own perspective). The bottom line is that I'm the only one that can change my own opinion so the argument is nothing more than a game and maybe a catalyst for research. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Outside looking in Author: Mom [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 22:01:57 03/23/05 Wed I guess that is one difference between us - I don't like to argue just for the sake of arguing. I enjoy discussing some things when it is just a discussion, but I admit that I enjoy it more when I'm discussing it with someone who sort of agrees with me. I have never liked just arguing - such a waste of energy! But I'm glad I didn't offend. I do get passionate about things that matter to me, so I am not a good debater (sp.?). [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Outside looking in Author: michael [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 00:57:38 03/24/05 Thu I don't consider arguing a waste of time or energy as I get good things from it. First, argument drives me to research and analyse stuff I'm contending about. I've learned a lot more about history and government as a result of arguing online than I got from the public school system. The stuff I've researched for my arguments is accurate too, which is a substantial difference from what I "learned" in school. Second, arguing with clever folks can educate and enlighten when your wrong or ignorant of a subject. My understanding of quite a few issues has become more informed and deeper as a result of losing arguments with clever folks online. Third, I don't expect it to happen and it is quite rare but when you really hit the issue right and people acknowledge that you've changed their minds it can make your year. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]