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Subject: Yesterday Author: JeffF [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ] Date Posted: 07:43:45 06/06/02 Thu In reply to: Mark7 's message, "Palestinian Right to Self-defense" on 00:17:02 06/06/02 Thu Yesterday, 17 civilians on a bus were killed. Israel reacted and retaliated. What other country wouldn't have done so? It's not an ideal policy by any means, but what choice do they have? I do say again that I don't like the house demolishments and think this is a counterproductive policy that Israel should do away with. It's very difficult for civilians anywhere to excersize their right to self defense. The people on the bus yesterday didn't have a chance. If unarmed civilians who were not involved in terrorist activity were deliberately hit by Israeli tanks in Jenin, then there needs to be an investigation and charges need to be brought. Soldiers are not immune from charges in a democracy, but we know by now that because the PA says something happened does not mean it happened. An internal investigation of the whole situation in Jenin should take place. [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Replies:

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Internal Investigation? Author: Mark7 [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 22:40:25 06/06/02 Thu Who would lead the investigation? Sharon's buddies and the orthodox rabbis? You make me laugh Jeff. What you are telling me is that Palestinians have no right of self defense. According to your own posts, the Israeli army can do with them as it wills, and it should be subject only to "internal investigations". What do you think would have been revealed if the Nazzi holocaust was investigated by a Wermacht "internal investigation"? And you are telling me that collective punishments and house demolitions against civilians are legitimate self defense methods because of what Hamas does, but if a bus full of IDF soldiers is blown it is terrorism. Do you really think Israel can get away with this mentality, this ethics and this morality for ever? Do you really think the entire world is as stupid as those who voted for Bush? I doubt anybody with any brains has any doubt of the true aims of the state of Israel - ethnic clensing and land robbery. Murder is just the side effect - greed works.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Internal Investigation? Author: JeffF [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 07:57:06 06/07/02 Fri Putting words in my mouth again, Mark? :-) I say again I don't like the house demolition policy. I think it's counterproductive and punishing innocent families lets the world forget that Israel is the victim here. Plus, it just breeds a desire for revenge. Making people homeless is not a helpful step towards future peace. I think the demolition of houses should be abolished as a policy. An internal investigation could be conducted by either the judicial system or the military itself(similar to the Mai Lai investigation in this country) or by an independant commission. This is how things are done in democracies, Mark. If the Nazis had had an independant judiciary or any independant body that could investigate things without being punished by Hitler or his henchman, that would have been different. Remember, that the Israeli judiciary is not subject to the orders of the elected leader of the state. And Germany did conduct investigations of Nazis after the Nazis were defeated. Only the first few trials were conducted by the allies and the Nazi finance minister who was found innocent at Nuremberg was convicted by a German court later.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Israel is the Victim? Author: Mark7 [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 21:44:29 06/07/02 Fri This is where you err. "Israel" is not the victim. The people who were killed by Palestinians are the victims. And the people who's houses are demolished by IDF are the victims. The Palestinians who are killed by "accident" are the victims. But most important, the Palestinian children growing today in Gaza and the West Bank are the victims. Innocent victims of land greed, fundamentalism, racism and American aid. Where you fail and where America is failing is to see the equalness of those victimized. But if you just count the victims, there are far more on the Palestinian side. There is a three to one ratio of killings in favor of Israel. There are also the people left homeless and countryless. And as long as America, Israel, and the Jewish community fails to understand their humanity, their suffering, the "war on terrorism" will have the same fate as the "war on drugs". The one victim I am mostly concerned is democracy and freedom in America. Bush is not above the morals of a dictator.