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Subject: Civilians? Author: Mark7 [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ] Date Posted: 21:41:46 06/06/02 Thu In reply to: Mark7 's message, "Palestinian Right to Self-defense" on 00:17:02 06/06/02 Thu I read that the yesterday attack was carrying soldiers. Check your reference. Anyhow, you still didn't answer my question about how should a Palestinian exercise his right to self defense against a Galil tank, driven over his house. And how is Israel exercising its right of self defense today? By buldozing 3 more Palestinian civilian homes to make room for more settlements. It seems to me that Israel's right to self defense is to rob it's neighbour of their homes and land and then whine about terrorism. As for the Jenin investigation, there never was one. There was no investigation because the Israeli government does not believe in any kind of justice for Palestinians. And our born again idiots agree with them. But check your facts on the buss. It was a bus loaded with SOLDIERS. The same soldiers who probably kill 12 year olds and demolish homes to build settlements. Jeff, you can beat around the bush as long as you want, but the truth is very clear. Israel is the one who doesn't want peace. They want land. And this terrorism business is a good argument made by TV evangelists for the consumption of born again idiots (like Bush). I say fine, OK - let Sharon do whatever, but let's stop financing Israel. They should kill 12 year old children and rob them with their own money not mine. [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Replies:

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: OK Author: JeffF [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 07:48:25 06/07/02 Fri I read more and I concede that a number of the dead on the bus were soldiers. Soldiers who were young people returning from furloughs. Let's try putting names with faces. David Stanislavski, a Ukranian wasn't supposed to be on the bus,but he had a short leave and had gone home to visit his mother. Four of the dead were from Netanya, the same community where the hotel dining room was hit on March 27th killing 29 people. No peace for the tiny coastal community. One of the surviving soldiers, Tzvika said "We're soldiers but we're young people too. We're supposed to grow up together, dream together. Instead, I'm waiting around here, crying, going from one funeral to another. Is there ever going to be an end to this?" The truth is very clear, Mark, no matter how much you dodge. Fact one - terrorism exists and the targets aren't just soldiers. It's the people in restaurants, pool halls, celebrating holidays, busses, cafes, etc. It's a nice diversion to bring up evangelists, but Pat Robertson didn't create suicide bombers. The media and education system and Moslem sheiks created them. Fact 2 - Land for peace is and has been the Israeli policy for years. The PA turned down the offer. Nevertheless, it remains the policy that most Israelis long for. Fact 3 - Settlements are not permanent if peace is ever truly available and desired by the PA. They can still be torn down and the settlers moved. This is not a guess. We have a precedent. This is exactly what happened with the treaty with Egypt. It's a cold peace, but it's still a peace and almost nobody has been killed in a battle between Egypt and Israel for years. You would think the PA and Syria would learn something from this. Israel has always been willing to exchange land for peace and the border between Israel and Egypt has been fairly safe for years now. I'm still curious to hear Mubaraks proposal. He has a better chance to break the impasse than most people. Fact 5 - No matter how much you keep dodging this one - any other democracy would have reacted to the constant attacks on their civilians. We cannot hold Israel to a higher standard than we hold other democracies too. We have reacted to attacks on our civilians. India may justifiably react to attacks on her civilians.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Soldiers are Soldiers in War Author: Mark7 [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 21:51:18 06/07/02 Fri If you remember from my antics with Ethan, I said that I believe the army is the most insane institution invented by man. I also said I oppose conscription and I believe that anybody who volunteers for military should know what he/she is getting into. Soldiers are legitimate targets in war. How about we put some names and stories behind the thousands of Palestinian children killed by Israeli army? Or about the thousands of "accidents" or maybe about the millions displaced by the IDF? You denny the right of Palestinians to self defense, you denny them humanity, you denny them the right to live as human beings. Can you understand this at all? Or do you really believe their humanity is less than the Jewish one?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Are they? Author: JeffF [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 08:23:45 06/10/02 Mon First, how are soldiers riding on a bus a legitimate target? It was an ambush by suicide bombers. Beyond that, you say you oppose conscription and so do I, but soldiers who are concripted don't usually have much of a choice. Not every soldier in Israel's army agrees with the policy of Sharon, any more than a lot of soldiers drafted here have always agreed with the wars this country is in. Names and stories of the Palestinian children killed? Go ahead, but always make sure it's the whole story. No shooting of a unarmed child by anybody on any side is ever justified. Deny them the right to live as human beings? Nonesense. I long for the time they are willing to actually negotiate peace and the West Bank can be put totally under legitimate(hopefully elected) Palestinian Authority in exchange for security guarantees. I don't know whether that time will come in my lifetime, but I'm not willing to give up hope.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: They are Author: Mark7 [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 22:40:47 06/10/02 Mon Soldiers on a bus are a more legitimate target than residents of Jenin who's homes have been flattened by Israeli tanks. You have to be blind not to see on TV the plain intention to destroy those tanks had over there. They were driving on purpose over parked cars, rather than in the middle of the road. Oh, I forgot, what a nice Jewish settlement would be built on that site. We talk about morals in this country and about 10 commandments, and we aid a country and a military who breakes most of them. Soldiers on a bus are a more legitimate target than Palestinian civilians in their homes.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Hm Author: JeffF [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 08:41:04 06/11/02 Tue Following your logic, was the Pentagon a legitimate target on the 11th? Where are you going to draw the line? Was it a fair military target, in your opinion, even though there were plenty of civilians working there? These lines aren't as simple as you may think. Besides, what choice do draftees have but to either serve or go to jail, unless they have an exemption? Of course, the big difference between soldiers serving in Israel and those who served in Vietnam here is that the Israeli soldiers are fighting to defend their country where civilians are attacked by suicide bombers and others. Recruitment is up in the US after the 11th. The desire to join the military goes up when the country has been directly attacked. Nobody knew why we were in Vietnam. Everybody knows why Israel has to defend itself against attacks on their civilians(like any other country).

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Hm Author: Mark7 [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 23:59:21 06/11/02 Tue Whether you or I like it or not, the Pentagon is a military target. Any military analyst in any conflict scenario would have drawn a situation where the communications headquarters is hit first, more often than not without much of a warning. This is what we did in Yugoslavia, this is what we did in Iraq, and mostly anywhere else. We would have done the same in Afganistan with the exception that Afganistan didn't have much of a central military communications system. While I am not happy the Pentagon was hit, if you think a bit, you realize that anybody with half a brain would have expected to have it hit in any conflict situation. The only reason it was hit was the arrogance of our superpower status. I am not happy the Pentagon was hit, and I am not happy that Israeli soldiers are killed. The difference between us is that I see that we are treating Palestinian civilians EXACTLY the same Osama Bin Laden treats Americans in the WTC. We hold them collectively responsible for the deeds of their governements. We kill Afgan peasants, Palestinian women and cildren in the name of our President's "Cruciade" with his born again fundamentalists. Osama kills American and Jewish civilians in the name of his Jihad. Sharon kills women and children in the name of Zionism. The difference between me and you is that you are blinded by your racism and Jewishness and fail to see the humanity of your enemy, and the inhumanity done in your cause.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Clafying my position Author: JeffF [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 09:53:03 06/12/02 Wed I see the humanity of ordinary people, not involved in terrorist activities. I've said before that I think some of Israels policy is counterproductive and will not help establish peace in the long run. I dislike the house demolishments and I dislike people being held without trial. What you fail to see is that suicide bombers and other attacks on civilians don't just hurt Israel ulimately they hurt the Palestinians. Most of the Isreali public favored peace negotiations, but now, even those on the left have doubts. They see that since Oslo and the installment of the Palestinian administration, peace has not increased and people live in constant fear. I still hope the day comes when the Palestinians can control all of the West Bank and Gaza, but where are the leaders who will step forward and negotiate actual peace with Israel, including a police force that actually stops terrorism, instead of encouraging it? I'll look for the column of Sharon that Forest mentioned and get back to both of you. One question though, Mark. How is Israel reacting to terrorism any different than say Britain reacting to Irish terrorism or India reacting to Kashmir terrorists or the Phillipines reacting to Islamic terrorists? I repeat - all countries react to attacks on civilians.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: There is no peace without justice Author: Mark7 [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 23:54:24 06/13/02 Thu You cannot rob a people of it's land, it's dignity, it's right to live and it's way of life, keep doing it and expect peace. Israel needs to offer justice to ordinary Palestinians who's homes it robbed at gunpoint. You, me, the US, Arafat, the war criminal Sharon, Hamas, and the great fundamentalist retard that rules America cannot change the fundamental fact that Palestinians have lost their homes at gunpoint.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: So they are right/justified to blow themselves up? (nt) Author: KatherineJ [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 13:14:23 06/14/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Oh, and murder a few other ppl in the process. Author: KatherineJ [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 13:15:28 06/14/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Who's to justify them? Author: Mark7 [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:17:15 06/16/02 Sun What would you tell your husband, your grown son to do if the enemy would come at the door of your house with a gun and tell you to pack and leave your house so they can own it?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Who's to justify them? Author: KatherineJ [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 11:41:19 06/18/02 Tue There is a non sequitur in your message, but I'm not smart enough to articulate it. Katherine

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Who's to justify them? Author: JeffF [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 14:04:23 06/18/02 Tue Can you justify the attack today on another bus, this time it wasn't soldiers. More civilians, many of them children were killed or injured. Do you think this actually helps the Palestinian cause? If they want to keep the focus on whether the settlements are illegal and whether they can have a completely independant state, suicide bombers attacking a bus full of children doesn't help. Put the moral questions aside, and on a purely practical level, it does nothing to get the Palestinians closer to their goal.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Terrorism Author: Mark7 [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 22:34:21 06/18/02 Tue Terrorism is terrorism. It is bad no matter if it is a suicide bomber, or a helicopter pilot shooting from a safe distance. An eye for an eye. Both Arabs and Jews believe in an eye for an eye, and that's why there are so many blind people in the Middle East. There will be more suicide bombers and more torture in Israeli prisons, more "targetted assassinations". All those are terrorist acts, weather Burp the great retarded leader can articulate them as such. What does Israeli and Arab killing each other's children have to do with my paying for it? Why should American taxpayers pay to support Israeli terror against Arab terror?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: You justify them Author: Mark7 [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 22:39:56 06/18/02 Tue Katherine, I cannot distinguish between Zionism and Muslim fundamentalism. I cannot differenciate between Jihad and Crudiade. I cannot see the difference between "targetted assassination", torture of prisoners in Israeli jails and Arab terrorism. I am not as smart as the great drunken cowboy. To me, a Palestinian is entitled to the same right to his home as anybody else. I would kill for my home, if I had to. I don't see why do we support unconditionally Israel, when both Jews and Arabs believe in an eye for an eye. And I don't give a damn if all Jews and Arabs are killing each other's children in the name of God, or if they are all going blind. I just refuse to be dupped by Born Again idiots like the Great Retarded Ruler as to the need for Americans to follow the middle east. Stop aiding either side ASAP. We need the money at home.