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Subject: Re: Paula and Abortion


Author:
JeffF
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Date Posted: 10:13:49 05/07/02 Tue
In reply to: Mark7 's message, "Paula and Abortion" on 09:04:54 05/07/02 Tue

I don't think it's a problem of the whole topic of abortion is censored. This can be even handed. Just ban the topic alltogether. Your point that people were insulting you and you responded in kind was in a way my point too. What does anybody get out of discussing the topic on DP at all? There are always just a lot of shouts and insults. Sam gave it a good try on IS once to have a rational discussion of the subject, but people on both sides have such strong emotional reactions that it's almost impossible to have a rational discussion. This isn't true of any other topic in the same way. There are other places on the net to discuss abortion and I wish the topic didn't come up on DP at all. For the record, I'm pretty sure Ethan is "pro-choice" not "pro-life".

I'm well aware that Jews flourished better in Moslem countries overall than in Christian countries before the 20th century. This started to change by the twenties(there was a major pogrom in 1929 in several Arab countries as well as Palestine.) It got worse in the thirties and forties when several leaders, including the Mufti of Palestine supported the Nazis. In 1948, when the UN partitioned the country into an Arab state and a Jewish state, the Arab countries convinced the Palestinians to leave, assuring them there would be a short war and they attacked and lost and this was the start of the homelesseness for some Palestinians. In 1967, Egypt and Israel went to war and Israel begged Jordan to stay out of it. They did not and they lost the West Bank, Jersusalem and the other territories. These were captured from JORDAN. Let's not forget that there was no Palestine at the time. These areas were Jordanian and in fact King Hussein had fought his own battle against terrorism of the PLO. Also, remember that access to the holy sites of the Jews had been denied by Jordan, where until recently access to the holy sites of Islam had always been kept open by Israel.
Remember too that when Sadat became a partner to peace, he got back all his land in exchange for no war. When the Palestinian leadership becomes serious about peace, they can get most of the land too. This was the deal Barak offered at Camp David that was turned down.
As for the Jewish community in Iran, it used to do better. Khomeni changed some of this and a lot of Jews had to leave Iran, just like they had to leave Arab countries earlier in the last century.
I don't recall ever accusing you of anti-semitism or anti-Americanism or anything like that. It's true we have a basic disagreement because you confuse who the victims and the aggressors are. I have no admiration for Sharon and he would not be my choice for leader, but I think any leader of Israel would have been forced to take some defensive actions. I don't know any country in the world that would just sit back and let repeated attacks on innocent civilians take place.

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Replies:
[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Victims and Agressors


Author:
Mark7
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Date Posted: 08:59:19 05/08/02 Wed

You are right. We are in disagreement about who the victims and agressors are.

To me, the victims are the civilians killed on all sides - Jewish, Arab and American (9/11 is a direct consequence).

I also consider victims all the Palestinians displaced without reparation, forced out of their homes at gunpoint.

I consider the Jewish settlers as aggressors, land thiefs and murderers, fundamentalists just as bad as the Hamas. Some of the Rabbis on American TV (sorry I don't follow their names) and Pat Robertson are saying the exact same things Osama is.

Pat Robertson said the other day that killing Palestinian children in Jenin "is normal because it is war". Isn't that what Osama said in the tape supposed to be "evidence"?


I believe Israel ows the same war reparations to Arab displaced people same as Jews received from Germany. These reparations should be paid to individuals, not governments up to the second and third generations. Nobody can give Israel peace, if Israel refuses to give justice.

I believe America has no business supporting any of the sides, because I believe both sides are evil, and I believe Israel is no friend of America.

Israel is nobody's friend, is a country that refuses to integrate into a world community and act according to civilized norms of behavior.

Israel is the only country in the world to my knowledge that refuses to define it's borders, refuses to sign human rights agreements and refuses to sign non nuclear proliferation while still receiving American aid.

Please tell me what did Israel ever do for America so we would kill children to make home for more Russian Jews?

Israel is not a democracy, but a theocracy. Jewish citizenship is granted by Orthodox Rabbis based on religion. Christians and Muslims, Israeli citizens have to use different color license plates to make sure they are checked by Jewish police more often, just like the Jews in Europe were forced to wear the yellow star.

Israel is led by a war criminal, a murderer of innocend women and children and a terrorist. Israel is breaking many of the 10 commandments it claims to hold dear - it steals land, it kills people, it tortures people, it spies against America it's friend.

Worse, when your friends are child murderers like Sharon, you become a child murderer, and I don't want Palestinian blood on my hands.

As for Camp David, I haven't been there, so I have little idea of what was offered, and what refused.

But I know that no settlement is possible without taking into consideration those people who were forced out of their homes at gunpoint to make room for the settlers buldozer.

Arafat cannot give you that, Sharon knows it, Bush knows it, everybody knows it, you do just as I do.

As for Paula's board, it's doing what Paula wants it to do. It is satisfying her ego and propagating her ideas. It is her board, as you all keep telling me, so if she wants to call abortion "baby killing" it's a free country.

I am also free to use this board, or others to tell you that the board sucks lately, because it became a place where like minded people are shufling like minded tired ideas.

Once in a while you get a good post (more on IS than other places) but I am sure that Paula will convince everybody on the board there is something wrong with it if it is in any way conflicting with the board platform which I can summarize below:

- Female sexuality and sex drive = good, Male sexuality and desire = bad.

- Israel kill Pal children = good. Pal kill Jewish children = bad.

- Republicans = good moral citizens with Bible and Guns to kill in the name of Jesus. Liberals are stupid idiots and baby killers, but that is not an insult, it is a fact.

- Wife don't get sex = husband bad, husband don't get sex = husband bad.

- Church is good. Church teach American to kill, wear guns , better. Army very good. American soldier kill innocent - not his fault - bad liberal government or bad people. Foreign soldier kill American very bad he terrorist.

- You question American military, American war, you no good American you traitor. You tell Oklahoma boy "go die for Isral settlements" you good American.

- American, Jewish pilot bombs children = mistake. Suicide bomber, very bad terrorist.

- Paula ski trips, very important, must discuss on every occassion.

These simplistic ideas are more suited for Ethan who is a man of character with strong simple ideas about good and evil, just like his fierce leader G.W. Baby Bush.


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Hey, Mark


Author:
JeffF
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Date Posted: 08:01:41 05/10/02 Fri

Check out the thread Jacques started on IS called "The Road to Hell". It has an interesting discussion of the Middle East. Over there, I may be one of the more pro-Israel voices.

Obviously, I can't argue your point that civilians killed on all sides are victims. This is always unfortunately true in war, even when war is necessary. The civilian Germans in Dresden during WWII for example were victims, but that doesn't change the basic underlying fact that the Nazis were the primary aggressors and the rest of the world the primary victims. If the suicide bombs would stop, so would the retaliation and there is no country in the world that would not do would Israel did and retaliate for suicide bombings against their civilians. (just as the US did).
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Which begs the question:


Author:
KatherineJ
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Date Posted: 14:23:00 05/10/02 Fri

Why did Bush rein in Sharon? That coalition he wants is not going to get formed, or at least not the way that would be acceptable to Bush. More hand-tying and hand-holding -- form over substance, IMO.

Katherine
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: First


Author:
JeffF
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Date Posted: 15:01:15 05/10/02 Fri

The President has so many conflicting goals,that it's hard to know why he does anything. Remember before the 11th, he had little interest in foreign policy. I think his sympathies are with Israel, but there are a lot of "pragmatists" in the State Department and elsewhere who want to remember that there are a lot of Arabs in the Middle East and we don't want them all for enemies.
Rein in Sharon though? He may have tried, but I don't think he did it. Israel doesn't wait for a green light or a red light from the US before acting.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: More news you never read in America


Author:
Mark
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Date Posted: 20:18:42 05/11/02 Sat

Why is it these deaths never make the headlines? The horrible suicide bombings do. But somehow these deaths don't matter.
Among the dead are 15 unarmed civilians (7 children, 2 women, and 6 men), 2 Palestinian police officers, and 5 alleged 'gunmen.' Hence, as usual, the vast majority of the people killed are unarmed civilians:

May 1, Rafah, Occupied Gaza:

*Huda Muhammad Shaluf, age 2, was killed by shrapnel wounds to her
head when Israeli tanks fired at her house in Rafah, Gaza. Several
other members of her family were injured.

*Bilal al-Derbi, 22 and Ahmed Abu Khebleh, 21, were killed
after being struck in the head by Israeli machine-gun fire in their
homes before dawn.

*Abdallah Shaluf, 23, was killed by a gunshot to the head while
standing outside his home.

May 2, Rafah, Occupied Gaza:
*Sabha Abu Ghanem, 48, was killed by gunshots to her chest as
Israeli occupation forces mounted on tanks and armed bulldozers
advanced into the town firing heavy machine-guns. Three others,
including another women were injured in the incident.

May 3, Rafah, Occupied Gaza:

*Ibrahim Hamad, 19, died of his injuries two weeks after being hit.
On April 22 he suffered severe injuries to his head when Israeli
tanks shelled Rafah. Two other people were injured in that incident.

May 3, Bethlehem, Occupied West Bank:

*Nidal Ismail, 12, and his brother Abed Khaled Ismail, 10, were
killed by unexploded Israeli ordnance while playing in an abandoned
Palestinian police station which had just been vacated by Israeli
occupation forces. Their 14-year-old brother Noor Ismail lost both
of his legs and a hand in the explosion.

May 3, Nablus, Occupied West Bank:

*Abdel Karim Arja, a member of the Palestinian security forces was
killed by Israeli forces making an incursion into the city.

May 4, Bethlehem, Occupied West Bank:
*Khalas Dajahrah, 35, one of the Palestinians besieged in the Church
of the Nativity was shot in the chest by an Israeli sniper. He died
after being taken to an Israeli hospital. Israel claimed he was a
highly wanted terrorist.

May 4, Al Qarara, Occupied Gaza:

*Ramzi Ayid, 25, a Palestinian police man, was killed by a gunfire
to his head while standing at his checkpoint, as Israeli tanks bore
down on him.

May 5, Tulkarem, Occupied West Bank:

*Tamer Abu Sirriyeh, age 8, was killed by gunshot wounds to the
chest when Israeli tanks opened fire with heavy machine-guns on a
Palestinian refugee camp near Tulkarem. A 16-year old by was hit in the head and suffered severe injuries in the same incident.

May 5, Jenin, Occupied West Bank:

*Fatima Ibrahim Zakarneh, 30, and her son Bassem, age 4, and
daughter Abir, age 3, were targeted and killed by Israeli tank fire,
after Israeli occupation forces were reportedly spooked by a
snapping tank tread and thought the noise was a bomb set off by the
mother and her two toddlers.

May 6, Occupied Gaza:

*Hazen al-Wadya, 22, and Mahrus al-Bahtiti, 20, were killed in a gun
battle with Israeli forces after infiltrating across the border,
according to the Israeli occupation army's unverifiable claims.

*Suheil Ziada, 27, and Mazen Abu Razek, 23, were shot dead by
Israeli occupation forces near Karni crossing. The occupation army
claimed that the men were armed and attempting to infiltrate into
Israel.

May 6, Rafah, Occupied Gaza:

*Hassan Abul Jaza, 54, died of gunshot wounds to the head that he
had suffered five days previously when Israeli occupation forces
attacked Rafah.

May 7, Rafah, Occupied Gaza:

*Jamal al-Shaar, 17, was shot dead by Israeli occupation forces as
he came out of his home. His 15-year old brother was shot and
injured. The occupation forces then demolished their home.


Tell me Jeff. Why should my money pay for this? And if I do pay for the Israeli assassins wages, what moral right do I have?

Why shouldn't the families of those above hate me and all those I love, and try to do the same to them, as my money is doing to their loved ones?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: See my realty check post


Author:
Mark7
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 20:12:58 05/11/02 Sat

About the idiot Bush.

And I copied a post from Yahoo Middle East Board. Maybe Jeff can tell me all these are lies:

Israels is the greatest at some things
by: americafirstlastforever (27/F/Buena Park, CA) 05/09/02 05:49 pm

Msg: 37514 of 37573

Did you know that non-Jewish Israelis are prohibited from buying or leasing land in Israel?

Did you know that automobile license plates in Israel and the occupied territories are
color-coded to distinguish Jews from non-Jews?

Did you know that in the occupied territories Israeli authorities allocate 85 percent of the
water resources for the tiny Jewish population, and the remaining 15 percent for the vastly
larger Arab population? In Hebron, for example, 85 percent of the water is set aside for
about 400 Jewish "settlers," while 15 percent must be divided among Hebron's 120,000
non-Jews.

Did you know that the United States provides Israel with $5 billion in aid each year?

Did you know that yearly US aid to Israel exceeds annual US aid to all the countries of
sub-Saharan Africa combined?

Did you know that the Israel is the only country in the Middle East that has nuclear
weapons?

Did you know that the Israel is the only country in the Middle East that refuses to sign the
nuclear non-proliferation treaty, and bars international inspection of its sites?

Did you know that for more than 30 years Israel has occupied territory of neighboring
Syria in defiance of international law and United Nations Security Council resolutions?

Did you know that Israel has for decades routinely sent assassins to kill political enemies
in other countries?

Did you know that high-ranking Israel Defense Forces officers have admitted publicly that
IDF troops summarily killed unarmed prisoners of war?

Did you know that Israel refuses to prosecute IDF troops who have acknowledged
executing prisoners of war?

Did you know that Israel routinely confiscates bank accounts, businesses and land of
non-Jews, and refuses to pay compensation to the victims?

Did you know that on June 8, 1967, Israeli war planes attacked an American naval ship,
the USS Liberty, in international waters, killing 34 American sailors, and wounding 177.


I know most of these, and that's why I think it is time we tell our government to stop aiding this criminal nation, and to our fellow Jewish countrymen to decide if they want to be Jews first, American second, or the other way around.

German Americans, Italian Americans made these choices. Jewish Americans seem to favor Israel before their own country, and I say it is time they change, or move to Gaza and the West Bank and build their future there with their own money.

I do not want my tax money used by Israel to for murder, torture and genocidal ethnic clensing in the name of God.

My God does not hate Palestinian children.

If somebody worships a God who hates Palestinian children, he/she should follow Sharon in Gaza. That includes the Satan Worship fundamentalists like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell who believe the same.

They should go to the occupied territories and strangle Arab babies with their own hands, but not as Americans, but as Israelis.

This nation has laws that prohibit an American national from serving in a foreign army and conflict. There are thousands of Jewish Americans who are Israeli veterans, and were American citizens at the time they fought ethnic cleansing wars in Palestine.

Why does our government prosecute them?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Let's face is, reality check


Author:
Mark7
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 01:51:53 05/11/02 Sat

The president is a meritless idiot. He got elected by a minority of the minority of voters, and he mainly got there because of judicial flop and royal birth.

The man is so stupid, he really thinks he is Richard Lionhearth, riding mighty charging the Muslim hoards in a Holy Cruciades. His brain is developed at the 12 year old level, less the dead braincells caused by alcohol overdoze.

What he lacks in intelligence or knowledge, he makes up in blind idiotic fundamentalist belief.

The man is a danger to the nation, and sooner or later will get all of us in trouble.

And any idiot is not complete if he is not arogant. So Baby Bush has decided in his complete arogance that everybody he dislikes is a terrorist.

No, the IRA is not terrorist - too many drunk Irish friends of his in Texas. No, Sharon is not a war criminal and a terroris. Terrorists are those Pat Robertson and the Christian Coalition points at him. And Musharaf is a good democrat, not a dictator like Sadam, fomenting nuclear war with India.

His idea of international politics is that of a drunk Texan cowboy raising hell in a bar shooting from the hip and hitting mostly the piano player and the bartender.

Sooner or later, if nobody takes the guns away from the moron, we'll face ourselves in WW3 and it ain't going to look pretty, like WW1 or WW2.

This time it's going to hit our soil, and it's going to hit our homes. Frankly I'd rather have all the settlers in Gaza and the West Bank executed by Hamas than see American cities targeted with bio-weapons so Israel's IDF can torture Palestinians at leisure.

I just can't believe there are so many idiots in this country who support the moron.

As for Sharon and the Israelis, they probably laugh their a$$es off when they talk about Bush.

Bush barks at Sharon like a caged dog to a cat that spits on him. The problem is the Israeli cat is not just spitting at Bush, but is also spitting at America.

It rifts us apart from our European allies and friends, and it endangers the lives of all of us.

Where is Monica Lewinski when you need her? Maybe if she sucked his dick, the Fundamentalists in the Republican Party would elect somebody that can be up to the tasks.

Look at the countries that get closer to us, and the ones that get further away.

Europe, Norway, Denmark, France, Germany even England departs from the Bush wars, and we shack mostly with Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and some other good human rights democratic countries.

Disgusting.


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