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Subject: Israel is no democracy. It is a THEOCRACY. Author: Mark7 [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ] Date Posted: 22:59:21 10/03/01 Wed In reply to: JeffF 's message, "You still can't read" on 07:48:06 10/03/01 Wed We agree in this one. We shouldn’t embrace Saudi Arabia and Pakistan just because it is convenient today. 2. A deliberate attack on civilians is never justifiable no matter the political aims. The people at the Trade Center and the people at the Pentagon(we here in the DC area lost people that day too)were just going about the day to day business of going to work. The people on the planes were just ordinary people flying. NOTHING can justify the attacks. No, a deliberate attack on civilians for political means is never justifiable. It is not justifiable in the case of the WTC, it wasn’t justifiable in the case of the Belgrade TV station and hospitals hit, it wasn’t justifiable iwhen the bridges over the Danube in Belgrade were hit. It isn’t justifiable when the Israeli Army shoots missiles from Apache helicopters into Nablus killing women and children. It is wrong when Palestinian homes are demolished randomly in retaliation. That is terrorism also, even if it's done by uniformed thugs with little hats on the tips of their heads instead of unshaved thugs dressed in dirty bedspreads. Yet the moral outrage for those crimes is lacking in America. And that’s why nobody can agree as to who is the terrorist and who is the freedom fighter. Because your simplistic definition in above post does not apply. The Pentagon is a military target, and the Belgrade TV station was full of civilians, yet our men in uniform are not terrorists, they are freedom fighting gentlemen officers. And THEIR freedom fighters are always the terrorists. I say terrorism is fought only when you and I are outraged at the terror unleashed by OUR freedom fighter. The other, is simply good old fashion war. 3. People who want to know why it happened should read Bin Laden's Fatwah. The reasons he hates America are there in his own words and primarily relate to our policy in the gulf. Unless you've actually taken the time to read what he said, you're just talking off the top of your head. I don’t speak Arabic, and frankly, I doubt I can find an accurate English translation. For some reason, I cannot believe our support of Israel has nothing to do with it. 4. Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East which makes her our natural ally. In case you haven't noticed, when King Hussein died, Jordan had a new king as successor. Assad's son took over in Syria. Israel is the only country in the area with elected leaders. It may be a democracy for you, because you are Jewish. But if you are Arab, it is a democracy just as South Africa was during the apartheit era. The occupied territories are the Bantustans. Israel is no democracy. Israel is a THEOCRACY. Citizenship is given only to one religious and ethnic group, qualification for converting to Judaism is in the hands of Orthodox Rabbis, many of whom are just as mad and bloodthirsty as Osama Bin Ladin and Jerry Falwel. Iran has elections also and it doesn’t make it a democracy. Religious fundamentalism Islamic, Jewish or Christian excludes democracy. There is no such a thing as a democratic religious state. Plus, Israel has specific problems. There are 1.8 million Arabs who are hostages at gunpoint and have no right in the land where they were born. That is no democracy, and remember that I learned more than creationism in school. Tell that story to idiot uneducated Bible brainwashed rednecks. They will believe you. 5. It's in Isreal's best interest to let the Palestinians have an independant state on the West Bank, but this will not cause peace unless the rest of the Arab world signs off on it and unless borders are guaranteed by the US and European countries. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is just a part of the wider conflict which is between Israel and the Arab dictatorships. I do not believe Israel wants peace. If it did it would have withdrawn the settlements. Israel wants land, and maybe that is why they elected Sharon, the terrorist of Palestinian women and children in Lebanon as prime minister. And I believe you know Israel wants expansion. Sharon is just the Jewish version of Milosevich. But you will never see him tried at the Haga, just as you never saw Ben Gurion for setting British soldiers on fire alive. 6. As far as Bin Laden, I think it would be better to capture him and put him on trial than just to kill him. The world and Americans need to see the evidence and make sure we have the right guy. If he's killed, I won't lose any sleep over it, but a trial would be better. I agree. Bin Laden dead is a martyr. It will do nothing to deter terrorism, and a lot to incite it. I would much prefer Bin Laden in front of a jurry. And I never said you were unAmerican. Still putting words in my mouth. True, you never did. Your buddy, Ethan said something about being sick of people with my oppinion, bla bla bla. Since I cannot reply to his post, I picked on you, knowing you two share so many things in common. You can tell him, I am sick of people like him, who believe America should be the big immoral bully, and who put the interests of Israel above the interests of his own country. The aliance with Israel has brought the US little benefit and lots of problems and grief. Terrorism is a direct consequence of our immoral behavior towards the Palestinians, like it or not. Military response will not frighten men ready to die for what they believe in. It never did throughout history. It never will. America needs to change it’s policy towards Israel and Palestine if it wants peace and prosperity. If America wants war, terror, murder and revenge… well, you have Ethan’s posts on DP, GW Bush’s speaches about cruciades, Bin Laden’s Jihad, Israel’s settlements, and suicide bombers. I hope the reason of the American people will prevail over the greed and moral culpability of our politicians, and America will change it’s foreign policy. But frankly, I am skeptical. From what I see, we need more hurt before we learn to reason as a nation. I blame teaching positive thinking to the exclusion of critical thinking. [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Some agreement, some disagreement Author: JeffF [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 06:59:53 10/04/01 Thu "It is wrong when Palestinian homes are demolished randomly in retaliation." This may surprise you, but I agree with that. In fact, I'd take it a step further. It's also wrong when the house of the widow and family of the terrorist is destroyed in retaliation. Leaving people homeless doesn't help anything and only feeds revenge desires. But the bigger problem is that it condemns people without a trial. "And that's why nobody can agree on who is the terrorist and who is the freedom fighter. Because your simplistic definition in above post does not apply. The Pentagon is a military target and the Belgrade station was full of civilians, yet our men in uniform are not terrorists, they are freedom fighting gentelmen officers." Says who? I repeat - any DELIBERATE attack on civilians for political aims is a terrorist attack regardless of who commits it. If we knew there were civilians in the television station,than that was a terrorist act regardless of whether it was committed by soldiers. What's next? Are you going to tell me the Mai Lai massacre wasn't an act of terrorism because it was committed by our soldiers? Rubbish. "For some reason, I cannot believe our support of Israel has nothing to do with it." Certainly, neither you nor I come in without having some preconceived notions. I'll admit that Schremmer's link has somewhat changed my mind(don't know if you've looked at it but he did put a link to an earlier interview with Bin Laden on IS- since I know you still read there sometimes, I think you may have seen it). Bin Laden does mention Israel there among a number of other things. I'm still reading some of it. It's quite long. "It may be a democracy for you because you are Jewish. But if you are Arab, it is a democracy just as South Africa was during the Apartheid area." Give me a break, Mark. This may be true of the so-called occupied territories, but this is not true of Israel proper. There are many Arab citizens of Isreal. There are Arab members of the Knesset and Arabs vote in all Israeli elections. "Citizenship is given only to one religious and ethnic group." False. There are Christian citizens and Moslem citizens and others. "I do not believe Isreal wants peace." I could debate that, but that's not what I was saying anyway. I was saying that it's in her best interest. A permanent state of war is never in a country's best interest. Peace is in the best interest of the security of the citizens of Israel as long as it is a just and lasting peace. Remember that almost nobody has been killed in actions between Isreal and Egypt since the peace treaty of 1978, proving that even a cold peace is in a country's best interest. Living in a state of suspicion is preferable to actuallly killing each other. "Sharon is the Jewish version of Milosevich. But you will never see him tried at the Haga." I would have no objection to a war crimes trial as long as any party in the Middle East who was accused of war crimes was tried, as in the Balkans. If it was just a one sided vendetta against Israel, I would fight it at all costs. Also, the tribunal could not include any members from Arab countries or Israel. It would have to have at least the appearance of neutrality. "Your buddy Ethan said something about being sick of people with my opinion, bla bla bla." I like Ethan, but we have different starting points in life. He was in the military in Vietnam while I didn't see the point of that war(and still don't). Like a lot of people who were in Vietnam, he tends to be skeptical of the peace crowd and protestors. For me, it's more complicated. The current situatation is very different from Vietnam. Whether we are fighting a war with a point depends on what we plan to accomplish. If we plan to simply kill Bin Laden, that is not enough. If we plan to ally with other thugs like the President of Pakistan,we will likely regret it later. That doesn't mean we should do nothing. Freezing the assets of terrorists has been a good move. If we want to start shutting terrorism down, we have to get at the money that finances it. I hate to agree with Iran, but this time the leaders there may be right that it would be better to let Bin Laden be arrested by the UN and tried before an international tribunal, rather than just blown away by the US and made a martyr with his followers screaming for more blood. Get every terrorist in Afghanastan and his followers elsewhere might still act. So, I am conflicted. Basically, I don't want us to do nothing, but I don't want us to rush blindly into anything that will make the situation worse either.